What is truth?

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yablabo said:
Truth is the conformity of the intellect upon reality.

– Nicole
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I think that’s actually Knowledge, rather than Truth.

God is the realest thing there is, thus making God the ultimate Truth, but without Knowledge of this Truth, the intellect cannot conform itself to His Reality.
 
jmcrae said:
Not necessarily. For as long as the first two and the second two are alike, they come together to equal four. They can never equal five (or any other random number), but if they are ever not alike, then at that time, they can only ever equal two and two, without ever coming to four.

For example, 2 apples plus 2 apples = 4 apples.

2 apples plus 2 oranges = 4 fruits, but only two apples and two oranges - never four of each, nor four of either.

2 apples and 2 rabbits can only = 2 apples and 2 rabbits - they don’t have enough in common to become four of anything.

Mathematically, 2+2=4, all the time - this is a fact. But as soon as you begin to apply meaning (truth) to it, then it becomes ambiguous - you have to know what it is that you are counting, before you know for certain whether it is true or not.

That isn’t relativism, though - that’s just the practical application of the mathematical principle.
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O.K. then two apples plus two apples is four apples. That statement is absolute truth. If it is not so then I’m closing up shop and taking up knitting…teachccd 😉
 
MindOverMatter said:
Yes. I am just sad that i didn’t have a hand in helping you see that.😦
My post must have been really rubbish.
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Your post was one of the most sensible contributions to this thread. MindOverMatter, this thread was posted to extract different opinions regarding absolute truth and moral relativism.

In fact, I printed out your post in order that I may read it to my Confirmation group tomorrow evening! That’s one of the HUGE problems with typing our thoughts on a keyboard. We lose our sense of emotions and personal character. I am sooo sorry that you felt neglected. It was simply that we mirror each other so much I read your post and said, " yup, that’s it!".

If you do not reply to this post I will PM you because I want to make sure that this is cleared up… God bless you …teachccd 🙂
 
Touchstone said:
If by “absolute” you mean “without qualification”, I would say my existence is an objective fact, a fact which obtains independent of my subjective will or anyone else’s, and allow that as “absolute” – my existence is not beholden to anyone’s subjective qualification.
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By your definition objective truth is the absolute truth of which the poster is speaking - it is a truth not beholden to anyone’s subjective qualification.
 
brandymmiller said:
By your definition objective truth is the absolute truth of which the poster is speaking - it is a truth not beholden to anyone’s subjective qualification.
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That seems a problem for theists… Catholic theists, anyway. If reality is not subject to anyone’s will, that’s a problem for God, eh? On Catholicism, reality is totally subject to the will of God, right? The Catholic universe is perfectly a subjective reality in that sense.

From an atheist standpoint, reality really is not beholden to any will or mind. It exists as it exists totally independent from the wishes or will of any mind.

-TS
 
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teachccd said:
I am a confirmation facilitator and our group had a pretty deep discussion on their understanding of truth. Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:38, “what is truth”? Many youths today believe that what is true for someone is their truth. Muslems have their truth and that’s o.k. since that is what truth is for them.

We are on the topic of morality and I wanted to establish the definition of absolute truth as opposed to moral relativism. We discussed faith and reason and how faith is not blind but evidential. It was the most intense discussion thus far.

So now I pose to you: What is truth?
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Somewhere along the line some stupid person confused reality and truth. They are not the same thing. Illusions are reality but they are not truth. Lies are reality but they are not truth.

It is quite true that my reality will not be the same as yours. However, truth is not dependent on our own perspectives. We all have the same truth out there to be known. The difference is whether we actually know it or not. It must be found; it cannot be created. We cannot create truth. We can only discover it.

Another stupid person came along and further added chaos to confusion and confused absolute truth with certain truth and relative truth with relative reality. Relative truths are certainly true. But they are not absolute truth. an absolute truth is true in and of itself and it does not need to be measured against anything else to see if it is true or not. Relative truths on the other hand are only true because when measured against each other, or the absolute, they are shown to be true.

There is also only one absolute truth - God. An absolute truth is the benchmark by which all other truths are measured and gauged to be true. This is God. All other truths are relative which means they are only known to be true because they relate to the absolute and to each other. While relative truths are certainly true, they are not absolute truth.
 
jmcrae said:
I think that’s actually Knowledge, rather than Truth.

God is the realest thing there is, thus making God the ultimate Truth, but without Knowledge of this Truth, the intellect cannot conform itself to His Reality.
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Actually Yablabo had it right, according to the Thomistic formulation:
Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus.
 
teachccd said:
Without an absolute moral truth (God) an individual can view anything as relational and therefore everything becomes a perception as compared or contrasted to something else. And since everything eventually changes, so does that perception. In our understanding, God does not change therefore moral truths can never change.

It is an interesting topic by which all of us will be deemed accountable as even an atheist cannot avoid the origins of his own existence. And that origin is either an absolute origin or a relational jabberwock.
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Some points:
-God is not an absolute moral truth.
-An individual can view anything as ‘relational’ with or without belief in God; affirmation of belief in God is irrelevant - this is an obvious empirical truth.
-Human reason grasps truth in a human way, not absolutely; only absolute reason grasps truth absolutely. Don’t try to get your kids to cease to be human - supposing they accepted this task, they would obviously fail.

I think some people think that our most important task when it comes to the truth is to insist on it. Finding it comes first though. And growth is always required. We never hit an absolute wall. Helping others to find truth requires much more than an insistence that my truth is absolute (this kind of insistence is often counter-productive).
 
Touchstone said:
That seems a problem for theists… Catholic theists, anyway. If reality is not subject to anyone’s will, that’s a problem for God, eh? On Catholicism, reality is totally subject to the will of God, right? The Catholic universe is perfectly a subjective reality in that sense.

From an atheist standpoint, reality really is not beholden to any will or mind. It exists as it exists totally independent from the wishes or will of any mind.

-TS
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This statement is a misunderstanding of Catholic theology. In Catholic theology, Absolute Truth is Jesus Christ. Absolute Reality, for Catholics, is that Jesus Christ is the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is synonymous to but not the same as Absolute Reality.
 
Betterave said:
Actually Yablabo had it right, according to the Thomistic formulation:
Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus.
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I hate to appear to be disagreeing with St. Thomas, but it seems to me that it would be difficult to conform our intellect to Truth, without Truth being mediated by Knowledge.
 
Foreigner said:
Somewhere along the line some stupid person confused reality and truth. They are not the same thing. Illusions are reality but they are not truth. Lies are reality but they are not truth.

It is quite true that my reality will not be the same as yours. However, truth is not dependent on our own perspectives. We all have the same truth out there to be known. The difference is whether we actually know it or not. It must be found; it cannot be created. We cannot create truth. We can only discover it.

Another stupid person came along and further added chaos to confusion and confused absolute truth with certain truth and relative truth with relative reality. Relative truths are certainly true. But they are not absolute truth. an absolute truth is true in and of itself and it does not need to be measured against anything else to see if it is true or not. Relative truths on the other hand are only true because when measured against each other, or the absolute, they are shown to be true.

There is also only one absolute truth - God. An absolute truth is the benchmark by which all other truths are measured and gauged to be true. This is God. All other truths are relative which means they are only known to be true because they relate to the absolute and to each other. While relative truths are certainly true, they are not absolute truth.
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Very well said…
 
Betterave said:
Some points:
-God is not an absolute moral truth.
-An individual can view anything as ‘relational’ with or without belief in God; affirmation of belief in God is irrelevant - this is an obvious empirical truth.
-Human reason grasps truth in a human way, not absolutely; only absolute reason grasps truth absolutely. Don’t try to get your kids to cease to be human - supposing they accepted this task, they would obviously fail.

I think some people think that our most important task when it comes to the truth is to insist on it. Finding it comes first though. And growth is always required. We never hit an absolute wall. Helping others to find truth requires much more than an insistence that my truth is absolute (this kind of insistence is often counter-productive).
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God is not absolute truth?? Jesus insisted on truth. See John 14:6. Yes, we are human and I never intended for my group to cease being human but I cannot require that they accept less than what Jesus asks of us…teachccd
 
brandymmiller said:
This statement is a misunderstanding of Catholic theology. In Catholic theology, Absolute Truth is Jesus Christ. Absolute Reality, for Catholics, is that Jesus Christ is the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is synonymous to but not the same as Absolute Reality.
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I think you are getting “objective” and “absolute” mixed up. Saying “Jesus Christ is the absolute truth” is to declare that truth is subjective – in this case, utterly dependent on the mind and will of God. Jesus, if he is the absolute truth, makes reality and all it’s truths NON-OBJECTIVE. I agree that that conceptually we might suppose that truth is absolute, but its absoluteness, coming from a person (or three persons) makes Jesus the “Absolute Subjective Truth”.

I think I did understand the absolute part, and I think you have your adjectives confused.

-TS
 
Touchstone said:
I think you are getting “objective” and “absolute” mixed up. Saying “Jesus Christ is the absolute truth” is to declare that truth is subjective – in this case, utterly dependent on the mind and will of God. Jesus, if he is the absolute truth, makes reality and all it’s truths NON-OBJECTIVE. I agree that that conceptually we might suppose that truth is absolute, but its absoluteness, coming from a person (or three persons) makes Jesus the “Absolute Subjective Truth”.

I think I did understand the absolute part, and I think you have your adjectives confused.

-TS
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Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion;
intent upon or ***dealing with things external to the mind ***rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book;
of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

Absolute: ***something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence ***or for its specific nature, size, etc. (opposed to RELATIVE ).

Do I have my adjectives confused?
 
teachccd said:
God is not absolute truth?? Jesus insisted on truth. See John 14:6. Yes, we are human and I never intended for my group to cease being human but I cannot require that they accept less than what Jesus asks of us…teachccd
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God is subsistent Truth. That’s fine, but you need to explain that, not just insist on it. Jesus is the way of truth, the true way to true life, love, and joy, not just Absolute Truth; he is human, not just divine; he emptied himself, became like us so as to walk with us. What are you suggesting that Jesus asks of us that I have neglected in what I wrote? Walk humbly with your God… We see dimly now… There are many things that are too hard for you now… Etc.
 
brandymmiller said:
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion;
intent upon or ***dealing with things external to the mind ***rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book;
of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

Absolute: ***something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence ***or for its specific nature, size, etc. (opposed to RELATIVE ).

Do I have my adjectives confused?
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Yes, and the distinction is important. As I said in my previous post, “Jesus as absolute truth” would make that truth subjective – dependent on mind. It would not be dependent on any conditions external to Jesus (by the implication of this odd phrase – I’d always understood it the way Betterave parsed it), and thus absolute, but it is still “determined by mind”: subjective.

“Jesus as objective truth” would be a different proposition, meaning that Jesus’ truth was not dependent on any mind or will – including Jesus’. In that case, Jesus’ truth would be judged by something external to his will and mind, some other outside criterion that is not dependent on a will.

Both statements, if true, would be true in different ways, ways which are not compatible with each other. If Jesus’ mind is what determines “absolute truth”, absolute truth is a subjective construct. If not, it’s not.

What you are missing, I think, is the crucial role the mind in relation to the proposition plays. “Objective” is cognizant of that feature, as the phrase you bolded shows in tht definition. Mind, feelings and personal preference do not appear in your definiton of “absolute”, as it only focuses on independence from external qualifications. An “absolute” can still be internally dependent on the will.

-TS
 
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