What is up with...

[StTommyMore]

Skimpy shorts (or other inapprpriate attire, like tank-tops, miniskirts, torn jeans, etc) at Mass?
Rock bands playing “hymns”?
Chit-chat before and after Mass?
No genuflecting?
short confession lines and long communion lines?

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming Vatican 2 or the Novus Ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the Church?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Skimpy shorts (or other inapprpriate attire, like tank-tops, miniskirts, torn jeans, etc) at Mass?
Rock bands playing “hymns”?
Chit-chat before and after Mass?
No genuflecting?
short confession lines and long communion lines?

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming Vatican 2 or the Novus Ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the Church?

The truth is the Church is saying one thing, and Hannah Montana is saying another thing. Which do you think is a typical teen or pre-teen girl more likely to follow? People will blame many things within the Church, but the truth is the enemy is outside. Its mass media. And sadly, the perception for most youth is its cooler to be a rock star than to be in service of the Church.

 

[Cristiano]

People are just as sinful as usual, the only difference is that now they do not hide it anymore and they are not embarrassed by showing it off. Cultural ADHD is affecting everybody and in every level of our lives.

I think that one specific problem with the baby boomers generation is due to lack of real catechesis at home and at the parish level. I was done with formally studying my religion when I went through confirmation and first communion at the age of 8.

One specific problem with the generation after the baby boomers was poor, feel good, “do collages and games” catechesis. That still happens today in a lot of parishes.

How can people have a relationship with God if they do not know him at all?

 

[MarkThompson]

Skimpy shorts (or other inapprpriate attire, like tank-tops, miniskirts, torn jeans, etc) at Mass?
Rock bands playing “hymns”?
Chit-chat before and after Mass?
No genuflecting?
short confession lines and long communion lines?

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming Vatican 2 or the Novus Ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the Church?

I’m going to show you three pictures of bread lines during the Depression. These are people so poor that, despite being Americans, they were standing in line for handouts of free food. Please observe their attire carefully. Now, ask yourself what people would wear to stand in line for free food today. Is it different? Does that difference have anything to do with faith, the Church, or Vatican II?

Allow me to suggest that the great majority of the answer to your question about people’s comportment in church is identical to the answers you might come up with about people’s comportment in bread lines.

http://earthhopenetwork.net/depression_bread_line_Corbis-UPI-Bettmann.jpg

http://outprofessionals.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/unemployment.jpg?w=415

Feri.org - World Magazine 2024

 

[StTommyMore]

I’m going to show you three pictures of bread lines during the Depression. These are people so poor that, despite being Americans, they were standing in line for handouts of free food. Please observe their attire carefully. Now, ask yourself what people would wear to stand in line for free food today. Is it different? Does that difference have anything to do with faith, the Church, or Vatican II?

Allow me to suggest that the great majority of the answer to your question about people’s comportment in church is identical to the answers you might come up with about people’s comportment in bread lines.

http://earthhopenetwork.net/depression_bread_line_Corbis-UPI-Bettmann.jpg

http://outprofessionals.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/unemployment.jpg?w=415

Feri.org - World Magazine 2021

I would say that people have forgotten that at the Mass, they are not getting free bread, but are in the presence of the Creator of the Universe. Ttire at Church and faith are linked, whether you wish to admit it or not.

 

[ConstantineTG]

People are just as sinful as usual, the only difference is that now they do not hide it anymore and they are not embarrassed by showing it off. Cultural ADHD is affecting everybody and in every level of our lives.

I think that one specific problem with the baby boomers generation is due to lack of real catechesis at home and at the parish level. I was done with formally studying my religion when I went through confirmation and first communion at the age of 8.

One specific problem with the generation after the baby boomers was poor, feel good, “do collages and games” catechesis. That still happens today in a lot of parishes.

How can people have a relationship with God if they do not know him at all?

I agree. I was at our quarterly Catechisis training last Saturday and I can’t believe we breezed through most of the Sacraments. Worse of all, we had a priest who was very knowledgable and an excellent speaker, but he handed it off to two other speakers who seem lost and just read off the paper, and they tackled 5 of the 7 sacraments. The priest taught 2 sacraments plus The Creed. I wasn’t disappointed with the priest, but having such an excellent teacher why hand it off to two clueless people? I think one of the girls got P.Oed at me when I were answering questions for her. But I realized it was a bit prideful of myself to try and take her place so in the spirit of charity I kept quiet until the priest returned. Although I expressed my opinion on the feedback form after the class.

 

[MarkThompson]

I would say that people have forgotten that at the Mass, they are not getting free bread, but are in the presence of the Creator of the Universe. Ttire at Church and faith are linked, whether you wish to admit it or not.

I don’t think you’re quite seeing my point, unfortunately. I’d suggest you’re sort of missing the plot if what you’re saying is, “Yes, I understand that what people wear, how they comport themselves, and how they understand ‘formality’ has undergone massive changes in the last century in virtually every arena other than church. But that has no connection to my question, which is, why has it also undergone changes in church? I don’t get it.”

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I don’t think you’re quite seeing my point, unfortunately. I’d suggest you’re sort of missing the plot if what you’re saying is, “Yes, I understand that what people wear, how they comport themselves, and how they understand ‘formality’ has undergone massive changes in the last century in virtually every arena other than church. But that has no connection to my question, which is, why has it also undergone changes in church? I don’t get it.”

The clergy allow it. There was a time when someone showing up for Mass dressed as you describe would have been met at the door and told to return when properly dressed. Apparently we can’t do that anymore, might offend them but I guess offending God and other parishioners is OK. The music situation is the same, the clergy allow it. I’m more convinced than ever that far too many people expect to be entertained and amused everywhere they go, including Mass, and through an apparent progressive attitude of the Church they get their wish. The excuse of trying to attract the youth is also pretty lame in my opinion and results in successive generations of lazier, more self-centered Catholics. What’s the point of building church numbers if they can’t adhere to the rules of decency, behavior and spirituality defined in the catechism?

 

[ConvertaKat]

I’ve asked the same question myself in regards to ADULTS for heaven’s sakes showing up in shorts, tops that expose their fine collection of inked body art and the like.
The response I have gotten was bloody typical; the “progressive” Catholic rolling their eyes heavenward, a slow and sad shake of the head and then the lecture, "how do you know that they are dressing like this on purpose out of disrespect? For all you know this is the best they have to wear, ect.

Listen, five bucks at Goodwill can get you a shirt or a dress with sleeves in it. Another couple of bucks will net you some pants that come to your shoes.

Yes of COURSE one should be glad that they are coming to church at all but after a time, wouldn’t it start to sink in, hey, maybe I should cover up “the twins” a little more or gee, maybe not everyone wants to view the epic battle scene I have tatted up and down both legs.

 

[MMprn]

It is very simple.
Disorder, dingy mediocrity, vulgarity, we have ceased to respect ourselves.
The question is, why have we lost self respect? I think it is because self respect equals discriminating, and discriminating is not p c. So, as a result, we yield to the lowest COMMON denominator. It supposedly works for every one. Maybe it is time to become more discriminating, not only in our dress, but in our expectations for every thing.
No one wanted to be considered COMMON in days gone by. Our entire society has become VERY Common. We’ve been sucked into a COMMON vortex.
Here’s the hope, COMMON can be a thing of the past.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I say the Mass lost its mystery. when the Mass changed everything else changed with it. just look at how the priests dress. it is no diferent. when i go visit father, he is wearing tshirt and jeans. they talk like the world does. whom do we follow? the leaders in teh Church. as they act so does the people.

 

[callmeChris]

Skimpy shorts (or other inappropriate attire, like tank-tops, miniskirts, torn jeans, etc) at Mass?
Rock bands playing “hymns”?
Chit-chat before and after Mass?
No genuflecting?
short confession lines and long communion lines?

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming Vatican 2 or the Novus Ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the Church?

Hey you are not alone when it comes to this issue. Many people especially parents have grown soft in their ways when it comes to the welfare of their children. Their permissiveness has, well- you know. But it is up to the clergy to do everything in their God given authority as priest and bishops of the Catholic Church to do what is BEST for the souls entrusted to their care, despite what they think. But indeed the clergy’s permissiveness has been a scourge to the Church, simply because it can go against what the Holy Father says, and what the Bible says.
I mean I have seen woman, mainly teenagers come into church with tank tops and ‘booty shorts’ And this was when I went up to receive communion, and they to ascended to the altar to relieve communion :bigyikes:. I mean My Parish priest doesn’t even speak of modesty when he’s up there in the pulpit. If I was him I would be blowing smoke outta my ears if I saw multiple people enter a church as if they were entering a meeting hall.

 

[CatholicOf94]

Hey you are not alone when it comes to this issue. Many people especially parents have grown soft in their ways when it comes to the welfare of their children. Their permissiveness has, well- you know. But it is up to the clergy to do everything in their God given authority as priest and bishops of the Catholic Church to do what is BEST for the souls entrusted to their care, despite what they think. But indeed the clergy’s permissiveness has been a scourge to the Church, simply because it can go against what the Holy Father says, and what the Bible says.
I mean I have seen woman, mainly teenagers come into church with tank tops and ‘booty shorts’ And this was when I went up to receive communion, and they to ascended to the altar to relieve communion :bigyikes:. I mean My Parish priest doesn’t even speak of modesty when he’s up there in the pulpit. If I was him I would be blowing smoke outta my ears if I saw multiple people enter a church as if they were entering a meeting hall.

Dont worry Chris, as long as they come to mass and if they have proper dispositions in their hearts they can come in dressed in bikinis. they can even waltz in dancing! Oh what modesty??? Pfff who needs if nowadays. Look at our parish attendance records are higher then ever!

And yet even the numbers of those who attend mass is equivalent to that of a classroom at times:nope:

 

[callmeChris]

Dont worry Chris, as long as they come to mass and if they have proper dispositions in their hearts they can come in dressed in bikinis. they can even waltz in dancing! Oh what modesty??? Pfff who needs if nowadays. Look at our parish attendance records are higher then ever!

And yet even the numbers of those who attend mass is equivalent to that of a classroom at times:nope:

youtube.com/watch?v=KRUNhzVHmtQ&feature=related
VS.
youtube.com/watch?v=I6oHZP8NK1Y&feature=related

NO COMMENT!

 

[HCC]

I will use my family as an example here…

Maternal side of the family:
3 generations ago: 12, yes 12 of my great, great aunts became Sisters of Loretto.
2 generations ago: 6 children, all married in the Church and had large families.
My mother’s generation: 3 out of 5 children (including my mother) left the Church, 1 became an Ursuline and left the order after 16 yrs post Vatican II
My generation: 12 out of 15 grandchildren (including my 2 brothers and their wives) left the Church.

Just me or did something go horribly wrong?

When I was growing up 70s/80s, I would ask questions about the Church, faith, sacraments, etc… The typical (misguided) response was, “The Church doesn’t do that any more.” Most Catholics, poorly educated in the Faith, went along with the changes after Vatican II and really believed everything had just changed over night. No questions, just-that’s gone. They really believed that. That is what the swingin’, hip, handsome, young priests of the time ran around saying. “This is a new time, a new church, isn’t it groovy?”

It allowed for an atmosphere of utter irreverence. There was no more credible, substantive preaching and by the 80s, many Silent Generation and Boomer Catholics who had stuck it out needed to hear something concrete, something to fill the void and went searching and got into New Age spirituality, joined churches with conservative political stances and sound moral teaching or simply faded away.

The majority of American Catholics do not think. Church is something sandwiched between running carpool and paying the bills. It is not the center of their lives. People go with the flow, don’t confuse them with the facts. Apathy reigns. It really isn’t their fault, I don’t get angry with the ignorant average American Catholic because they just did what was told and what was expected. “Take it easy. Don’t be so hard on yourself. Just be a good person, be nice to people and say a prayer for dear old Fr Ted!”

There are many books and essays, far better than what I just wrote, out there on how it all went down. Check some of those out.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I will use my family as an example here…

Maternal side of the family:
3 generations ago: 12, yes 12 of my great, great aunts became Sisters of Loretto.
2 generations ago: 6 children, all married in the Church and had large families.
My mother’s generation: 3 out of 5 children (including my mother) left the Church, 1 became an Ursuline and left the order after 16 yrs post Vatican II
My generation: 12 out of 15 grandchildren (including my 2 brothers and their wives) left the Church.

Just me or did something go horribly wrong?

When I was growing up 70s/80s, I would ask questions about the Church, faith, sacraments, etc… The typical (misguided) response was, “The Church doesn’t do that any more.” Most Catholics, poorly educated in the Faith, went along with the changes after Vatican II and really believed everything had just changed over night. No questions, just-that’s gone. They really believed that. That is what the swingin’, hip, handsome, young priests of the time ran around saying. “This is a new time, a new church, isn’t it groovy?”

It allowed for an atmosphere of utter irreverence. There was no more credible, substantive preaching and by the 80s, many Silent Generation and Boomer Catholics who had stuck it out needed to hear something concrete, something to fill the void and went searching and got into New Age spirituality, joined churches with conservative political stances and sound moral teaching or simply faded away.

The majority of American Catholics do not think. Church is something sandwiched between running carpool and paying the bills. It is not the center of their lives. People go with the flow, don’t confuse them with the facts. Apathy reigns. It really isn’t their fault, I don’t get angry with the ignorant average American Catholic because they just did what was told and what was expected. “Take it easy. Don’t be so hard on yourself. Just be a good person, be nice to people and say a prayer for dear old Fr Ted!”

There are many books and essays, far better than what I just wrote, out there on how it all went down. Check some of those out.

The problem is whats happening to the world as a whole these days. Media drives a lot of information and sadly most people get their Catechisis, right or wrong, from the media. And the worse part is, most of the theology you will find in movies, TV, and books are not Catholic but Protestant. So now people think that this is general Christian teaching, when it is not. Most people will not investigate the facts, just accept them. If it sounds right, they will accept it without question.

Blaming Vatican II I believe is the devil’s work to create confusion and mistrust within the Church. There is a lot of opportunity for us to improve the faith of everyone within the Church without throwing away Vatican II. And whether we believe it personally or not, Vatican II has brought a lot of people into the Church. I believe that good Catechisis would solve a lot of our issues as a Church.

 

[Ockham]

Skimpy shorts (or other inapprpriate attire, like tank-tops, miniskirts, torn jeans, etc) at Mass?
Rock bands playing “hymns”?
Chit-chat before and after Mass?
No genuflecting?
short confession lines and long communion lines?

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming Vatican 2 or the Novus Ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the Church?

You can’t discuss the current state of The Church by excluding V2 and the NO. Of course there are other factors but those two are huge.

The Roaring Twenties was a wild time yet we didn’t get a new liturgy or see a decline in the faith.

The Church is two thousand years old, it’s tough. Jesus said the gates of Hell will never prevail but He didn’t say there wouldn’t be challenges. We underestimate Satan and sometimes you have to give him his due. We’ve taken quite a hit these past forty years but we’re on a come back.

 

[ProVobis]

There is a lot of opportunity for us to improve the faith of everyone within the Church without throwing away Vatican II.

No one is throwing away Vatican II. Just merely trying to understand it, interpret it for themselves, or unfortunately trying to undermine it.

 

[Pilgrim2001]

I don’t think you’re quite seeing my point, unfortunately. I’d suggest you’re sort of missing the plot if what you’re saying is, “Yes, I understand that what people wear, how they comport themselves, and how they understand ‘formality’ has undergone massive changes in the last century in virtually every arena other than church. But that has no connection to my question, which is, why has it also undergone changes in church? I don’t get it.”

So then what do you mean by the pictures? People, as a whole, have less standards on attire or different values, but should that translate to worship as well? Please elaborate.

 

[floresco]

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming Vatican 2 or the Novus Ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the Church?

A very good book that addresses your question is The Mass and Modernity: Walking to Heaven Backward by Jonathon Robinson of the Oratory. He writes:We live in a world for which the language of traditional Christianity is a dead letter. The intellectual framework, the images, and the moral teaching of the faith no longer colour the ordinary consciousness as they once did. We live, as Iris Murdoch put it, “in a scientific and anti-metaphysical age in which dogmas, imiages, and precepts of religion have lost much of their power”. This weakening of the religious aspect of the modern consciousness is usually called *secularization *; modern society has been secularized.

He traces the development of Western philosophy from the time of the “Enlightment” that led to this current state and also examines how these ideologies have influenced modern liturgy. Rather than saying that the Novus Ordo causes secularization, he claims the problems with the NO and the secularization of society are caused by the same worldview. I highly recommend this book.