What is up with...

[MarkThompson]

So then what do you mean by the pictures? People, as a whole, have less standards on attire or different values, but should that translate to worship as well? Please elaborate.

These were people who wore coat, tie, and hat to stand in a line for free food. What would people wear today? Jeans and a t-shirt? I can’t understand asking why standards of attire in churchgoing have similarly declined, and saying, well, it’s surely due to some cause related to our worship.

Put differently, people used to dress up – coat and tie, a fresh shave – to have dinner at home, or to fly on an airplane. People do not do that anymore. So is there some specific factor about air travel that has caused that change for air passengers? Some identifiable turning point in home dining? I believe that there is not; instead, overall American societal mores have simply changed, for reasons that (obviously) have nothing to do with the Church. To me the question is not, why is an overall societal shift in customs and mores reflected in how members of that society comport themselves in the church sphere also, but rather, why would one expect anything else?

So when you ask, “should that translate to worship as well,” I’d say that if you’re asking whether we’d like it to, the answer is no; and if you’re asking whether we should expect it to, the answer is, unfortunately, of course we should.

 

[StTommyMore]

You can’t discuss the current state of The Church by excluding V2 and the NO. Of course there are other factors but those two are huge.

The Roaring Twenties was a wild time yet we didn’t get a new liturgy or see a decline in the faith.

The Church is two thousand years old, it’s tough. Jesus said the gates of Hell will never prevail but He didn’t say there wouldn’t be challenges. We underestimate Satan and sometimes you have to give him his due. We’ve taken quite a hit these past forty years but we’re on a come back.

They have no bearing whatsoever.

 

[Ockham]

So when you ask, “should that translate to worship as well,” I’d say that if you’re asking whether we’d like it to, the answer is no; and if you’re asking whether we should expect it to, the answer is, unfortunately, of course we should.

This post would work in the “Doing the minimum” thread too.

 

[Ockham]

They have no bearing whatsoever.

If you actually believe Vatican II and the Novus Ordo have no bearing whatsoever on the current state of The Church you are not being honest with yourself or anyone else.

 

[StTommyMore]

If you actually believe Vatican II and the Novus Ordo have no bearing whatsoever on the current state of The Church you are not being honest with yourself or anyone else.

You are making the claim. It is time for you to provide compelling evidence.

 

[MarkThompson]

This post would work in the “Doing the minimum” thread too.

Possibly. But, you know, it’s an interesting question – and I’m not some sort of historian of American customs – in a world in which people wore a coat and tie to stand in a bread line, or fly on an airplane, how much more were they doing to go to church? From what I know, they’d wear their best coat and tie, but it’s not exactly like they were putting on morning dress. I think it would be valuable to examine these changes in customs with some sort of baseline (say, going to a ballgame or staying home for dinner) in mind.

 

[Ockham]

Possibly. But, you know, it’s an interesting question – and I’m not some sort of historian of American customs – in a world in which people wore a coat and tie to stand in a bread line, or fly on an airplane, how much more were they doing to go to church? From what I know, they’d wear their best coat and tie, but it’s not exactly like they were putting on morning dress. I think it would be valuable to examine these changes in customs with some sort of baseline (say, going to a ballgame or staying home for dinner) in mind.

Yes it is interesting. From what I’ve read people respected many thing back then. Labourers were known for wearing a suit to work. I don’t think that means a suit was considered casual, but rather dressing for an occasion was the norm. The disconnect with your theory is that God hasn’t changed since the 1930’s. We owe God a higher level of reverance than we display at a baseball game. Yes, I know people wore suits to ball games back then too.

 

[MarkThompson]

Yes it is interesting. From what I’ve read people respected many thing back then. Labourers were known for wearing a suit to work. I don’t think that means a suit was considered casual, but rather dressing for an occasion was the norm. The disconnect with your theory is that God hasn’t changed since the 1930’s. We owe God a higher level of reverance than we display at a baseball game. Yes, I know people wore suits to ball games back then too.

This is of course true. But I brought it up because you mentioned “doing the minimum.” In a world where you didn’t leave the house without a coat and tie – where that was the minimum – how much above the minimum were people doing to go to church? Some I’m sure, but probably not as much as it looks like from today’s vantage point. Keep in mind that today the minimum to leave the house is, pretty much, some form of shirt and pants or shorts. It would take a better cultural historian that I to tell you exactly how much above the minimum people did in, say, 1935 to go to church, but, the more I think about it, I’m starting to wonder whether people today aren’t doing something around the same fraction above the societal baseline. For all we like to joke, the average standard of dress at church today is, in my experience at least, actually higher than the standard of dress at a ballgame or a movie. (Some people are exceptions, but some people were probably exceptions in 1935 too.) Is it as much higher as, mutatis mutandis, it was back then? I don’t know. But I do know that if we merely look at people in jeans at church today and say, “No one wore jeans to church X years ago! My, how standards have fallen!”, we’re missing a pretty significant part of the equation.

Naturally, you’re right to imply that we should aspire to better. But that’s not to say that we should bewail the current situation and cast about for an explanation in the Church until we know whether or not we know that people are really doing that much worse relative to a societal baseline than they were in ages past. Put another way, if I see that my boat is riding a lot lower at anchor next to the pier than the last time I looked, before I frantically check if it’s sprung a leak I should probably ask if the tide’s gone out.

 

[OraLabora]

I tend to take an approach of humility for church attire. That is I dress neatly, never shorts or jeans, but no suit or tie either. Neat trousers, a clean (usually black) shirt in summer, or a black turtleneck in winter. In fact that’s my general every day attire except for shorts in summer (I work from home mostly). But I refuse to wear shorts to Mass. The result of this is that my wardrobe costs are very minimal, and I rarely have to make decisions about what to wear in the morning. Part of electing to lead a life of voluntary simplicity.

I am a Benedictine secular oblate and I take my cue from the monks who wear a very simple (and sometimes very shopworn) black habit. Nobody stands out. Inner disposition in my book always counts more than outward appearance.

The poor are welcome, even if that means they can only afford to dress in rags.

 

[Ockham]

You make a good argument and I’m just trying to help with it. I doubt you were around then and I know I wasn’t, so perhaps the sentiment with the bread line was one should show respect when asking for a handout. In today’s sense of entitlement society I doubt that scene would be replaced. Maybe you wore your good suit to church, women wore gloves and their ‘Sunday best’. What I contend is that generation believed many things worthy of external signs of respect and reverance. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

I read once that the expression, 'Brother can you spare a dime" was usually successful. The sentiment was that the Depression was something everyone was in together; a sense of community. Sadly, I doubt that same sentiment would be repeated should our current economic situation worsen.

 

[StTommyMore]

I tend to take an approach of humility for church attire. That is I dress neatly, never shorts or jeans, but no suit or tie either. Neat trousers, a clean (usually black) shirt in summer, or a black turtleneck in winter. In fact that’s my general every day attire except for shorts in summer (I work from home mostly). But I refuse to wear shorts to Mass. The result of this is that my wardrobe costs are very minimal, and I rarely have to make decisions about what to wear in the morning. Part of electing to lead a life of voluntary simplicity.

I am a Benedictine secular oblate and I take my cue from the monks who wear a very simple (and sometimes very shopworn) black habit. Nobody stands out. Inner disposition in my book always counts more than outward appearance.

The poor are welcome, even if that means they can only afford to dress in rags.

Do not misunderstand. I am a grad student, and when I go to daily Mass in the mornings, I am wearing my clothes for School
But this morning was another student wearing skimpy shorts. On a regualr basis at my home parish, I see people with miniskirts, sports jerseys, etc.
If the Bishop is coming…it is dressed up, but if it is “just one of the friars” it is ridiculously casual. Like it is somehow “more Jesus” if the Bishop is the celebrant. I find it annoying.

 

[Ockham]

Just as a side note, I don’t have a problem with jeans per say. Many of them cost more than my dress pants. If they are clean and not overty fashion orientated (and of course not tight) then I don’t believe they are disrespectful. Of course if someone is of modest means and can’t afford any better then those jeans are the ‘Sunday best’.

 

[Ockham]

Do not misunderstand. I am a grad student,.

Which school, may I ask?

I provided a source correlating our current state of affairs to V2. I don’t claim it is the only factor, but I don’t agree with the Oprahish no-judgement argument either. We can’t blame everything on society and take no responsiblity.

 

[MarkThompson]

You make a good argument and I’m just trying to help with it. I doubt you were around then and I know I wasn’t, so perhaps the sentiment with the bread line was one should show respect when asking for a handout. In today’s sense of entitlement society I doubt that scene would be replaced. Maybe you wore your good suit to church, women wore gloves and their ‘Sunday best’. What I contend is that generation believed many things worthy of external signs of respect and reverance. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

I read once that the expression, 'Brother can you spare a dime" was usually successful. The sentiment was that the Depression was something everyone was in together; a sense of community. Sadly, I doubt that same sentiment would be repeated should our current economic situation worsen.

In point of fact – and somewhat to my surprise when I bothered to pay attention – Brother, Can You Spare a Dime is not really about charity or solidarity among the destitute, but a deeply bitter complaint about having naive hopes and confidence dashed and getting screwed over by the powerful and all the rest of society: “They used to tell me I was building a dream / And so I followed the mob. . . . Don’t you remember, they called me Al; it was Al all the time. / Why don’t you remember, I’m your pal? Brother, can you spare a dime?” (Here’s Jolson.)

 

[StTommyMore]

Which school, may I ask?

I provided a source correlating our current state of affairs to V2. I don’t claim it is the only factor, but I don’t agree with the Oprahish no-judgement argument either. We can’t blame everything on society and take no responsiblity.

Franciscan University of Steubenville. Before you pass judgment on the entire school, a few things to remember:

We have confession 4 days a week, usually with about an hour wait and a minimum of 5 priests hearing confessions.

We have 3 Masses daily, 2 on Saturday and 4 on Sunday.

An EF Missa Cantata is celebrated once a month. (I wish it was more, but I take what I can get)

We have young men and young ladies discerning religious life ( I perosnally know 6 young women in the discernment process). Last year there were in the neighborhood of 60 men in the pre-thologiate program.

Most of the students here are exemplary Catholics, but with 1700+ students, you will always find some who do not take their faith seriously.

Our Theology faculty is nothing short of brilliant. (Scott Hahn, John Bergsma, Fr. Dan Patee, Regis Martin, Alan Schreck. Mark Miravalle, and others)

 

[HCC]

The problem is whats happening to the world as a whole these days. Media drives a lot of information and sadly most people get their Catechisis, right or wrong, from the media. And the worse part is, most of the theology you will find in movies, TV, and books are not Catholic but Protestant. So now people think that this is general Christian teaching, when it is not. Most people will not investigate the facts, just accept them. If it sounds right, they will accept it without question.

Blaming Vatican II I believe is the devil’s work to create confusion and mistrust within the Church. There is a lot of opportunity for us to improve the faith of everyone within the Church without throwing away Vatican II. And whether we believe it personally or not, Vatican II has brought a lot of people into the Church. I believe that good Catechisis would solve a lot of our issues as a Church.

I never blamed Vatican II. The examples I gave suggested there was an error in application of Vatican II. Though, I do not think all fathers of Vatican II had the noblest intentions. Sincere perhaps, but certainly less than noble, in terms of holding up the Faith.

I agree 100% solid catechesis is the answer, but it is a long way in coming for those in the average suburban American parish.

There are signs of hope. Over the last 30 years, traditional Catholics formed, what John Paul II called, small churches, within their family life. Teaching their children the faith themselves and making God the center of their family’s existence. This is now bearing fruit with many vocations, creating new religious orders, foundations, media and giving a great witness to the rest of the Church.

 

[mick321]

Do not misunderstand. I am a grad student, and when I go to daily Mass in the mornings, I am wearing my clothes for School
But this morning was another student wearing skimpy shorts. On a regualr basis at my home parish, I see people with miniskirts, sports jerseys, etc.
If the Bishop is coming…it is dressed up, but if it is “just one of the friars” it is ridiculously casual. Like it is somehow “more Jesus” if the Bishop is the celebrant. I find it annoying.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think some of us are beginning to get the picture. The conditions you describe in your OP are based on your personal observations at both the Mass local to your school and your home parish.

Which of those Masses is offered in the Extraordinary Form?

Certainly there is enough blame to go around.

Own it.

 

[Ockham]

That’s interesting. I haven’t heard that usage before. The expression was also used as a sincere request for charity though, so I’ve read.

In talking with people who lived through WWII in Europe they shared their rations and kept an eye out for each other. Me? I’m squirreling away necessities and keeping my ammo fresh just in case something really bad happens.

Mass was also more of an event back in those days. Families were larger so getting the children washed and dressed for church would have taken longer. The church was often within walking distance so you were on public display. As you were fasting from the night before the next stop after was a restaurant or big breakfast at home. The Third Commandment was followed to not do any servile work and keep focused on the Lord all day. Here in Canada you couldn’t go shopping on Sunday until recently. As Sunday Mass was an important people dressed accordingly. I think it’s safe to say the day has lost much of its importance to our generation, thus the difference in attire.

 

[Ockham]

We have young men and young ladies discerning religious life ( I perosnally know 6 young women in the discernment process). Last year there were in the neighborhood of 60 men in the pre-thologiate program.

Most of the students here are exemplary Catholics, but with 1700+ students, you will always find some who do not take their faith seriously.

Our Theology faculty is nothing short of brilliant. (Scott Hahn, John Bergsma, Fr. Dan Patee, Regis Martin, Alan Schreck. Mark Miravalle, and others)

Consider yourself lucky. I wish I had access to that type of education when I was young. Hopefully you are discerning a vocation too. We need priests. How’s your Latin?

 

[StTommyMore]

Franciscan offers a Low mass every Saturday at noon, except for the 3rd Saturday of the month. On the 3rd Sunday is the High Mass. Also, a local Parish is Steubenville offers it once a month, so If I desire, I can go to the EF twice a month. MY home parish does NOT offer the EF, but there are several hndred Mass attendees weekly, and less than 12 have expressed an interest.