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TrueLight
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The church I’m looking at offers GREAT Vespers. Does that make a difference?
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5Loaves
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I love Vespers. I usually encourage people who are interested in the ECs to go to Vespers at an Orthodox parish if there isn’t an EC option around.
It begins in the dark. In my parish we usually have only the lamps of the iconostatis lit. In the Orthodox parishes I go to any reading is done with a readers’ candle at that point. (The readers’ candles are maybe 4 dips only, pretty thin.) At the singing of “O Gladsome Light” several people grab candles and go through the temple lighting all the other lamps and the unlit candles on the kissing icon stands.
A couple of Russian Orthodox parishes I’ve been in swing the overhead candelabra after all the candles have been lit, which is quite dramatic. Unfortunately our candelabra is actually electric so not the same effect when you flip the switch, but we do have many oil lamps around the temple at each icon so there is definitely a wonderful effect when going from the darkness to the gladsome light!
Russians, I don’t know about others, will combine Vesper with Orthros/Matins for festal vigils the night before a feast and Saturday nights. That in a pared down version for a parish, not a monastery, is about 2- 2 3/4 hours in my experience. Just Vespers is an hour and a half at least. Our priest says of these services in a parish there is a lot of cut and paste, and it’s more cut than paste. Still, these are beautiful and the prayers and hymns are very significant,
“Tranquil Light” or “O Gladsome Light” is older than that.
O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
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5Loaves
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Here’s a little about Great Vespers from St. Elias, a church with a very helpful website.
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ConstantineTG
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If one has to be legalistic about it, I don’t think Vespers or even Matins would fulfill a Roman Catholic’s Sunday Obligation. Because Canon Law says that they must attend a Catholic “Mass”. A Mass is a Eucharistic Celebration, so its only equivalent in the East is the Divine Liturgy. On the other hand, CCEO states that Eastern Catholics fulfill their “obligation” with the Divine Praises, which would include Vespers and Matins.Vespers is actually a part of the Liturgy of the Hours. It is more commonly known as “Evening Prayer” among Roman Catholics. Typically it is also more commonly celebrated publicly on Sunday nights, although Saturday nights instead of a “Vigil Mass” would be more traditional. Vespers in a Roman parish would indeed last about half an hour. If you want to check out something interesting see if you can find an Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox parish that celebrates Saturday night Vespers. You’d be in for quite a treat. And, if you go to an Eastern Catholic parish for Saturday night Vespers it fulfills your Sunday obligation!
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ConstantineTG
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Nope, most parishes would still do Vesperal Divine Liturgy if they have anything on Saturday at 5pm or later.
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TrueLight
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Thanks. The Wiki Article has a complete order of service! So I take it everyone chants? Not just the choir?
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Hesychios
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I remember that, I wonder where that comes from.
Orthodox don’t have such a rule, and the Latins don’t either.
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ConstantineTG
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What do you mean, Divine Praises or the Sunday Obligation? Doesn’t the Orthodox excommunicate if you don’t attend Divine Liturgy for 3 Sundays in a row without good reason?
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PennyinCanada
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We spent a weekend at St Elias, attending the services, and it was AWESOME! Visually stunning, and all the smells! lamps, wood, incense. Voices, beautiful. Heavenly indeed.
One short little clip from there that I love is this: youtube.com/watch?v=lcqYjqfDcFA&feature=related
Not in English but lovely. They do sing in English there but I think these were visitors from Ukraine. Those basey voices give me goose bumps. (I often looked for the base singers and sat in front of them. Don’t tell, kay?
)
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Hesychios
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Hi True,
There are only four in the USA these days, so you are fortunate. I used to visit one in Chicago (actually it was a Bielorussian congregation, but it used the Nikonian liturgy so I would call it part of the Russian Catholic movement), the RC bishop closed it though. It was the first place I ever encountered people drinking Holy Water, I was a bit surprised.
Of Russian Catholic temples there is the mission 5loaves belongs to in SF, and the New York one you might see. Also one in El Segundo (I think) CA, and a newer one in Denver that probably never had any real Russians from day one.
Like the others, the one I attended was not under their own bishop, the Pope has not given them any bishops in many years.
Today it is mostly a Russian liturgical tradition, these are primarily not actually Russian ethnic congregations.
I find pews totally confining. One cannot do a proper metany while in a pew, or even a decent bow. And it’s like the person is in a corral, bound in. It is not conducive to temple worship. When Orthodox parishes put pews in, they lose that.
Some EC missions and congregations are too small to afford new space, and sometimes they are stuck with whatever arrangements were made long ago. It could be a borrowed location, or one lent to them by a Roman Catholic religious order or parish and that could affect the appearance.
The Russian Catholics, although few in number, tend to be close to their roots.
There are only four in the USA these days, so you are fortunate. I used to visit one in Chicago (actually it was a Bielorussian congregation, but it used the Nikonian liturgy so I would call it part of the Russian Catholic movement), the RC bishop closed it though. It was the first place I ever encountered people drinking Holy Water, I was a bit surprised.
Of Russian Catholic temples there is the mission 5loaves belongs to in SF, and the New York one you might see. Also one in El Segundo (I think) CA, and a newer one in Denver that probably never had any real Russians from day one.
Like the others, the one I attended was not under their own bishop, the Pope has not given them any bishops in many years.
Today it is mostly a Russian liturgical tradition, these are primarily not actually Russian ethnic congregations.
Often EC parishes have pews or chairs, it is very common. This is true of many Orthodox parishes as well, but the tradition of standing is still a bit stronger among the Russians.
I find pews totally confining. One cannot do a proper metany while in a pew, or even a decent bow. And it’s like the person is in a corral, bound in. It is not conducive to temple worship. When Orthodox parishes put pews in, they lose that.
Some EC missions and congregations are too small to afford new space, and sometimes they are stuck with whatever arrangements were made long ago. It could be a borrowed location, or one lent to them by a Roman Catholic religious order or parish and that could affect the appearance.
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Hesychios
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The concept of Vespers fulfilling a Sunday obligation. It is uniquely Eastern Catholic, as far as I know.
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dvdjs
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I am glad to see you finally realize this. When this group was created you were very much opposed to any such suggestion and demanded proof from those who made it.
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/16730/1
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ConstantineTG
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Probably to prevent Eastern Catholics from just fulfilling their “Sunday Obligation” at the Roman Catholic parish down the road through the “anticipated” Mass on Saturday evening. Also so that the tradition of having Vespers is continued rather than replacing it with Vesperal Divine Liturgy.
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5Loaves
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Michael mentioned I’m in SF. I guess you’re in NY because I think they’re the only one of us 4 Russian ECC with ongoing Sat. night vespers. I don’t know if we have anyone on here from there.
You should be standing all or most of the time. I would not expect to have prostrations now, during Pascha.
We do have some vespers with many prostrations, like “kneeling vespers” Pentecost Sunday. We do it after our meal so it’s not an evening service for us because we all commute. I know others do this as well. And during Great Lent vespers have prostrations during the prayer of St Ephraim the Syrian, and Vespers of Holy Friday. We have wonderful services of Great Compline week nights during Great Lent again there are prostrations.
I’m glad I opened the link because I thought your comment below about pews was regarding one of our 4 Russian Greek Catholic Churches and I didn’t know any had pews. Our parish does not. That is a Ruthenian Church. I’ve heard Fr. Tom Loya’s Ruthenian parish has pews and that he’s tried to get rid of them, or some of them. Michael might know about that.
Some have to borrow space and are stuck with pews. Some have pews because somewhere along the line someone thought it a good idea. I’m not sure if this is exclusively in the new world. The Chaldean and Melkite parishes I’ve been to one had pews the other had chairs filling the temple.
The only Eastern place I’m in on a “regular” basis that has pews is the Greek Orthodox, which also has an organ. There are usually less than a dozen people there, (Vespers or Compline in Great Lent) and a few of us just stand and prostrate in the aisles which have lovely carpet, easy on the feet, knees and forehead. I wish they would just remove a section of pews. It’s a large church and they could remove pews and let those who still insist on pews sit in the pews. At our exquisite Holy Virgin Russian Orthodox Cathedral which is fairly large they have maybe 3 rows of benches when you enter. We have a bench along the back of our temple and 3 folding chairs, and a sort of garden bench in a section closer to the iconostasis where two elderly members sit. A parish we’ve visited several times which is quite large in addition to the standard bench along the back wall has many rows of chairs, on both the north and south sides of the temple. The chairs were all full and by the end of DL the floor standing area was full, too.
(I see that Holy Virgin has a helpful page of etiquette for visitors.)
My experience of Russians is everything is chanted. I have been in a Russian Orthodox Church where the music was either not familiar to the people and or it was sung in such a stylized way that the people couldn’t sing along, even tho it was a part the people knew and I’m used to singing in other Russian Orthodox settings and in our Russian Greek Catholic setting.
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5Loaves
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One can barely see the clergy prostrating in the candle light.
Another classic vespers prayer Let my Prayer Arise #3. As you can see the camera is facing north, on the clergy behind the iconostasis in this video.
Come Let Us Worship God O Lord, how manifold are Thy works! In wisdom hast Thou made them all.
Lord, I call upon Thee, hear me.
BTW our clergy and choir are praying (Russian Byzantine) Pentecost Vespers Sat. June 11 at 3PM in the Porziuncola Nuova in SF. It’s a wonderful little space! We did a panikhida there two years ago for All Souls.
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TrueLight
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Or to prevent Roman Catholics from fulfilling their obligations at the Eastern Catholic Church.
I hate this sort of double standard though. All Catholics should be able to fulfill their Sunday obligations in the same way.
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TrueLight
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Yes, I’m in NYC.
Michael mentioned I’m in SF. I guess you’re in NY because I think they’re the only one of us 4 Russian ECC with ongoing Sat. night vespers. I don’t know if we have anyone on here from there.
Thanks!
I’m really not sure at this point if the service is in English. I hope some of it is in English.
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TrueLight
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I love that the service is in the dark. Do the people prostrate at the same time or only the clergy?
This song is amazing and gives me chills.
So I sing in this awesome Protestant choir and we sung two Russian songs in the past. I had no knowledge of Orthodox spirituality at that point but I knew that I loved the music. The songs we sang were so dramatic and touched me to the core.
I was racking my brain trying to remember them which was hard because they’re in Russian, he he.
But I just remembered the composer (Rachmaninov) and the song, Bogorodice Djevo.
Any of you know it? So moving.
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ConstantineTG
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Well you can fulfill your Sunday Obligation at Divine Liturgy. Perhaps the Canon on assisting at a Catholic Rite “Mass” should be changed to give RCs the opportunity to participate in the Eastern traditions. I can’t really judge what is and what is not, but the wordings of the Canon sure point out that you must be at a Eucharistic Celebration for Roman Catholics.
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Hesychios
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I hate to say this (there was a thread recently about what I am going to write next) but this is sort of a nod to the latin way of writing laws to encompass these odd contingencies. In this case a writing an exception into law, instead of leaving it as a pastoral matter. It is not Orthodox, and it is not Roman Catholic, it’s sort of a compromise.
I suppose that since the CCEO came out of the Vatican, it is what should be expected.
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