What is wanting?

[Elf01]

If everybody helps everybody in the time of needs then you won’t worry about future and try to save your money.

In the world we have that is not the case.

This is related to objective versus subjective morality which is beyond the topic of this thread.

I was trying to make the point that a bad act may be rational from the point of view of the person committing it. What is best for one person may not be best for another.

Anyway, from a theistic point of view God gave us free will because a computer / robot cannot truly love. Do you want to spouse to love you because they choose to, or because they have to.

From an evolutionary point of view I would argue that free will may lead to more creativity or experimentation - which could provide an advantage e.g. willing to try new possible foods if your standard foods are scarce or for example inventing preservation methods, which allows food to last for longer.

 

[STT]

I was trying to make the point that a bad act may be rational from the point of view of the person committing it. What is best for one person may not be best for another.

That is not possible. A rational being always do things which is good considering all factors which are involved in a situation.

Anyway, from a theistic point of view God gave us free will because a computer / robot cannot truly love. Do you want to spouse to love you because they choose to, or because they have to.

We don’t really need free will to love each other if we accept the fact that loving each other is a rational thing. Hating each other on the other hand is irrational thing and we can do this only by using free will.

From an evolutionary point of view I would argue that free will may lead to more creativity or experimentation - which could provide an advantage e.g. willing to try new possible foods if your standard foods are scarce or for example inventing preservation methods, which allows food to last for longer.

Well, if we accept the fact that free will is a irrational thing then it couldn’t be useful in a given situation. What happen in the long term for a single choice is subject of discussion but to me free will in average is irrational.

 

[Elf01]

That is not possible. A rational being always do things which is good considering all factors which are involved in a situation.

I think that this is where we disagree. I think that the rational choice for a being would be what is good for that being in a given situation. That may not be the best overall choice, but I do think that it would be rational.

We don’t really need free will to love each other if we accept the fact that loving each other is a rational thing. Hating each other on the other hand is irrational thing and we can do this only by using free will.

Would you be happy for your spouse to love you without having a choice in the matter? Would you like to live in the

Well, if we accept the fact that free will is a irrational thing then it couldn’t be useful in a given situation. What happen in the long term for a single choice is subject of discussion but to me free will in average is irrational.

I think that free will allows us to think outside the box, which leads to discoveries that we would not make otherwise.

 

[Vico]

What do you want me to demonstrate?

That would require:

1.You use rational, best, correct, and good. Define them all.
2. Show that a correct act is not a good act.
3. Show that all rational acts are correct acts.
4. Show that an unfree act is always rational.
5. Show that all acts through habit or reflex are best.

Or rephrase these with only using rational and good, which you define.

 

[STT]

I think that this is where we disagree. I think that the rational choice for a being would be what is good for that being in a given situation. That may not be the best overall choice, but I do think that it would be rational.

It should be the best overall choice otherwise the agent makes an irrational choice.

Would you be happy for your spouse to love you without having a choice in the matter? Would you like to live in the

Love to my understanding is an emotion. We however have partial control on it and can affect it. Being rational and knowing that love is good we can always put effort to love more.

I think that free will allows us to think outside the box, which leads to discoveries that we would not make otherwise.

Most discoveries are made but substantial effort by rational beings, human. That is require planing, forecasting future, etc which all of these require rationality. Sometimes discoveries are made by chance but free will has nothing to do with this.

 

[STT]

That would require:

1.You use rational, best, correct, and good. Define them all.

Rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
Best: to the highest and excellent degree.
Correct: Free from rational error.
Good: that which is morally right.

1. Show that a correct act is not a good act.

A good and rational act are different given the above definitions. You might steal because you find that rationally correct but the act is not morally good.

1. Show that all rational acts are correct acts.

Rational and correct acts are equal given the above definitions. A correct act is an act which is rationally free of error.

1. Show that an unfree act is always rational.

A rational act is unfree given the above definition. That is true because a rational act is based on reason and analyzing a situation. What would be the use of freedom once you know what is the best option? Nothing.

1. Show that all acts through habit or reflex are best.

Habit or reflex or emotion are the forces that push us to act. They define the situation which contains options. It is duty of intellect to find the best rational choice among options therefore the act based on habit or reflex are not essentially the best.

Or rephrase these with only using rational and good, which you define.

I think that I defined things as you wished.

 

[Elf01]

Rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
Best: to the highest and excellent degree.
Correct: Free from rational error.
Good: that which is morally right.
…
Rational and correct acts are equal given the above definitions. A correct act is an act which is rationally free of error.

Why is an agent making the best choice for themselves not in accordance with reason and logic?

If there was a factor unknown to the agent would the choice still be correct, but not best?

 

[Elf01]

A good and rational act are different given the above definitions. You might steal because you find that rationally correct but the act is not morally good.

I had thought that you were arguing that a rational choice is always morally good. It seems I was mistaken.

 

[Vico]

Rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
Best: to the highest and excellent degree.
Correct: Free from rational error.
Good: that which is morally right.

A good and rational act are different given the above definitions. You might steal because you find that rationally correct but the act is not morally good.

Rational and correct acts are equal given the above definitions. A correct act is an act which is rationally free of error.

A rational act is unfree given the above definition. That is true because a rational act is based on reason and analyzing a situation. What would be the use of freedom once you know what is the best option? Nothing.

Habit or reflex or emotion are the forces that push us to act. They define the situation which contains options. It is duty of intellect to find the best rational choice among options therefore the act based on habit or reflex are not essentially the best.

I think that I defined things as you wished.

• 1. ok
• 1. ok.
• 1. ok
• 1. Original question for your statement “Considering habit or reflex into account a rational being always do the best if there is not free will.” is “Show that all acts through habit or reflex are best.” You showed the converse that acts through habit or reflex are not always best, so maybe you meant something else in the original post.
• 1. Stated that “A rational act is unfree given the above definition.” and “What would be the use of freedom once you know what is the best option? Nothing.”
     I will say that rational freedom is immunity from determination by one’s feelings. With free will, a decision to act or not will be made which may not be morally good although it is best. Free will may choose good or bad as best.

 

[STT]

Why is an agent making the best choice for themselves is not in accordance with reason and logic?

It is always like that unless they use free will.

If there was a factor unknown to the agent would the choice still be correct, but not best?

The action is the best at the time of decision but doesn’t come to be best considering the fact that the agent missed a factor.

 

[STT]

Original question for your statement “Considering habit or reflex into account a rational being always do the best if there is not free will.” is “Show that all acts through habit or reflex are best.” You showed the converse that acts through habit or reflex are not always best, so maybe you meant something else in the original post.

You are correct with your observation. My last argument is correct. The acts through habit or reflex are not always the best.

Stated that “A rational act is unfree given the above definition.” and “What would be the use of freedom once you know what is the best option? Nothing.”
I will say that rational freedom is immunity from determination by one’s feelings. With free will, a decision to act or not will be made which may not be morally good although it is best. Free will may choose good or bad as best.

What is rational freedom?

I also had two errors in my definitions.

Correct: Seems to be free from rational error.
Good: Is free from rational error.

This means that a decision might look rationally correct but the agent miss a factor, etc.

 

[STT]

I had thought that you were arguing that a rational choice is always morally good. It seems I was mistaken.

I corrected my definition. Please see post #191.

 

[Elf01]

That is not possible. A rational being always do things which is good considering all factors which are involved in a situation.

It should be the best overall choice otherwise the agent makes an irrational choice.

Why is an agent making the best choice for themselves not in accordance with reason and logic?

It is always like that unless they use free will.

I may be misinterpreting you. You have argued that the rational choice is the best overall choice. Do you now accept that an agent making a selfish choice (i.e. best for themselves) is making a rational choice, or are you saying that without free will an agent will only make rational choices?

 

[Vico]

You are correct with your observation. My last argument is correct. The acts through habit or reflex are not always the best.

What is rational freedom?

I also had two errors in my definitions.

Correct: Seems to be free from rational error.
Good: Is free from rational error.

This means that a decision might look rationally correct but the agent miss a factor, etc.

Rational freedom is immunity from determination by one’s feelings.

 

[STT]

I may be misinterpreting you. You have argued that the rational choice is the best overall choice. Do you now accept that an agent making a selfish choice (i.e. best for themselves) is making a rational choice, or are you saying that without free will an agent will only make rational choices?

The best choice is when you consider the best for yourself and others. Sometimes it becomes very difficult to make a rational choice when many factors are involved. What I am pointing is that we might miss to make the best decision, when all factors are properly taken into the account, due to error, missing a factor or having a wrong forecast of future, yet our decision is still correct since it is rational. So I am making a difference between the best and correct. No need to say that one need a proper education to make be rationally efficient. Put this aside the main point related to this thread is that a rational act is always correct and only free will allows a bad action since it can go against rationality.

 

[STT]

Rational freedom is immunity from determination by one’s feelings.

I don’t understand what do you mean with rational freedom? Could you please rephrase your sentence?

 

[Vico]

I don’t understand what do you mean with rational freedom? Could you please rephrase your sentence?

People experience feelings, for example fears or desires. Now the will can decide what the mind judges is the right course of action, but these feelings may determine the decision. Rational freedom is being sufficiently free from the influence of these feelings so that the will is not determined by them. Determined means to be decided.

 

[STT]

People experience feelings, for example fears or desires. Now the will can decide what the mind judges is the right course of action, but these feelings may determine the decision. Rational freedom is being sufficiently free from the influence of these feelings so that the will is not determined by them. Determined means to be decided.

I see. But that is rationality which says yes or no to feelings based on situation. There is no need for freedom.

 

[Vico]

I see. But that is rationality which says yes or no to feelings based on situation. There is no need for freedom.

Will and intelligence are different. The intelligence is used, the will decides.

 

[STT]

Will and intelligence are different. The intelligence is used, the will decides.

That I am aware of. Will can do bad or follow intellect.