What is with the 3rd Century?

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon,
is it safe to say that it failed? instead of more people (prots) coming into the church, people have left for other churches down the road that look similar. there they can get the gospel but with less “rules” and “rituals” of the Catholic church. it seems the church downplayed the richness, uniqueness and reverence that it had giving the attitute that the RCC is “just another denomination”
how does the church begin to fix the problems in the wake of the new mass?

Failed? No, it’s not safe to say that. As a friend of mine who has studied the Second Vatican Council extensively points out – we haven’t implemented the Council yet! Scripture tells us that there will always be people who look for the “easy way” who will fall prey to those who “tickle their ears.” It also warns us that the path is not easy, the way is narrow and difficult.

Unfortunately, the changes to the Mass were made willy-nilly without sufficient time for catechesis for the laity or the clergy. As a result, we found ourselves in a morass of individual experimention which resulted in a loss of the sense of the sacred.

How do we regain that? It’s very difficult and begins with the clergy (myself included) making sure that everything we do in the liturgy is in accordance with the directives of Holy Mother Church. Then we need to catechize the laity so that they can gain an understanding of and appreciation for the Mass, both in its inherent beauty and its sacrificial nature. When every action is reverent, when sacredness is restored, then we can say we have implemented the liturgical changes as they were intended to be – and not until then.

Deacon Ed

 

[jam070406]

Failed? No, it’s not safe to say that. As a friend of mine who has studied the Second Vatican Council extensively points out – we haven’t implemented the Council yet! Scripture tells us that there will always be people who look for the “easy way” who will fall prey to those who “tickle their ears.” It also warns us that the path is not easy, the way is narrow and difficult.

Unfortunately, the changes to the Mass were made willy-nilly without sufficient time for catechesis for the laity or the clergy. As a result, we found ourselves in a morass of individual experimention which resulted in a loss of the sense of the sacred.

How do we regain that? It’s very difficult and begins with the clergy (myself included) making sure that everything we do in the liturgy is in accordance with the directives of Holy Mother Church. Then we need to catechize the laity so that they can gain an understanding of and appreciation for the Mass, both in its inherent beauty and its sacrificial nature. When every action is reverent, when sacredness is restored, then we can say we have implemented the liturgical changes as they were intended to be – and not until then.

Deacon Ed

excellent response Deacon!

what can the laity, as individuals such as myself, do to be pro-active in setting the church back in the right direction you referred to? can we do anything? how can we make an impact?

 

[Mary_Henley]

“Abjure all factions, for they are the beginning of evils. Follow your bishop, everyone of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too, as you would the Apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command from God. Make sure that no step affecting the church is ever taken by anyone without the Bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is the one that is celebrated by the Bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the Bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as where Christ is present, we have the Catholic Church…
On the other hand, whatever does have his sanction can be sure of God’s approval too. This is the way to make certain of the soundness and validity of anything you do.”

From Ignatius to the Church at Smyrna

 

[Deacon_Ed]

excellent response Deacon!

what can the laity, as individuals such as myself, do to be pro-active in setting the church back in the right direction you referred to? can we do anything? how can we make an impact?

First, study the documents of Vatican II to make sure you really know what the Church wanted. Read the apostolic exhortations from Pope John Paul II to understand the direction the Church should be going. Read Pope Paul VI’s teachings on evangelization. Read the Catholic Bishops’ teaching on evangelization.

When you are sure you know what the teachings are, and ahve the correct interpretations, then get involved in parish life. If there is a liturgy committee, join it and gently guide it in the right direction. Remember, the liturgy belongs to the Church, not to any individual, not even to priests or bishops (and especially not to lowly deacons). Get involved in catechesis to help the children learn what the Church teaches. Encourage whole family catechesis so that we can lead the adults back to where they should be.

That’s a good start…

Deacon Ed

 

[jam070406]

First, study the documents of Vatican II to make sure you really know what the Church wanted. Read the apostolic exhortations from Pope John Paul II to understand the direction the Church should be going. Read Pope Paul VI’s teachings on evangelization. Read the Catholic Bishops’ teaching on evangelization.

When you are sure you know what the teachings are, and ahve the correct interpretations, then get involved in parish life. If there is a liturgy committee, join it and gently guide it in the right direction. Remember, the liturgy belongs to the Church, not to any individual, not even to priests or bishops (and especially not to lowly deacons). Get involved in catechesis to help the children learn what the Church teaches. Encourage whole family catechesis so that we can lead the adults back to where they should be.

That’s a good start…

Deacon Ed

thanks Deacon Ed. great advice. God bless you!

 

[Uxor]

First, study the documents of Vatican II to make sure you really know what the Church wanted. Read the apostolic exhortations from Pope John Paul II to understand the direction the Church should be going. Read Pope Paul VI’s teachings on evangelization. Read the Catholic Bishops’ teaching on evangelization.

When you are sure you know what the teachings are, and ahve the correct interpretations, then get involved in parish life. If there is a liturgy committee, join it and gently guide it in the right direction. Remember, the liturgy belongs to the Church, not to any individual, not even to priests or bishops (and especially not to lowly deacons). Get involved in catechesis to help the children learn what the Church teaches. Encourage whole family catechesis so that we can lead the adults back to where they should be.

That’s a good start…

Deacon Ed

One of the problems I have with Vatican II is Archbishop Bugnini and the allegations that he was a Mason and dismissed and exiled to Iran…That doesn’t bother you?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

One of the problems I have with Vatican II is Archbishop Bugnini and the allegations that he was a Mason and dismissed and exiled to Iran…That doesn’t bother you?

NO – allegations are just that – allegations. There is no proof that he was a Mason, there is no evidence supporting such an allegation. Anyone can make a claim against another – but without proof it is meaningless. It is also true that nobody knows the reason for his transfer – both parties are now dead and in God’s hands.

What we do know is that the Church, through her proper authorities, promulgated the Mass and it is, therefore, not a danger to our faith.

For me, that settles the issue.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

thanks Deacon Ed. great advice. God bless you!

One is glad to be of service.

Deacon Ed

 

[Caesar]

The Second Vatican Council, like the First, was called to address how the Church was going to operate in the modern world. It was not to change the ontological nature of the Church, but to address her operations. It was to shift from a seige mentality to an evangelistic mentality. From hiding in the upper room to preaching the Gospel.

Deacon Ed

Seems very much the opposite to me. The Church before Vatican II seemed much more willing and ready the preach the Gospel and allow Christ to speak through Her teachings- and it did. Today, the Church is too afraid of offending anyone or saying anything that might make people uncomfortable to spread the Faith.

Instead of working to combat the evils in our modern world, Vatican II seemed to be more about intergrating them into the Church.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Seems very much the opposite to me. The Church before Vatican II seemed much more willing and ready the preach the Gospel and allow Christ to speak through Her teachings- and it did. Today, the Church is too afraid of offending anyone or saying anything that might make people uncomfortable to spread the Faith.

Instead of working to combat the evils in our modern world, Vatican II seemed to be more about intergrating them into the Church.

The Church does not, and cannot, contain error because the Church is the Body of Christ!

The Church also operates in a world where we do have to be careful how we express the truth – that’s a reality and one the Pope Pius XII had to deal with which is why so many people accuse him of not helping the Jews.

While it is true that the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church, it’s also true that the Church can and does suffer. However, the missionaries that I have met (and one currently serves in my parish after years in New Guinea, are bold proclaimers of Truth and of bringing the Gospel to people.

So, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Deacon Ed

 

[Uxor]

First, study the documents of Vatican II to make sure you really know what the Church wanted. Read the apostolic exhortations from Pope John Paul II to understand the direction the Church should be going. Read Pope Paul VI’s teachings on evangelization. Read the Catholic Bishops’ teaching on evangelization.

When you are sure you know what the teachings are, and ahve the correct interpretations, then get involved in parish life. If there is a liturgy committee, join it and gently guide it in the right direction. Remember, the liturgy belongs to the Church, not to any individual, not even to priests or bishops (and especially not to lowly deacons). Get involved in catechesis to help the children learn what the Church teaches. Encourage whole family catechesis so that we can lead the adults back to where they should be.

That’s a good start…

Deacon Ed

Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy…Sacrosanctum Concilium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
I find this interesting…

1. That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress Careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral. Also the general laws governing the structure and meaning of the liturgy must be studied in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms and from the indults conceded to various places.** Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.**

**Organic growth…like a plant, a tree…**not something constructed, fabricated and tacked on or brought back from ten centuries ago, seventeen centuries ago but an organic growth.

The Canon of Hyppolytus…Canon Two…I believe this is where everyone gets 3rd Century…He was a theologian who became a heretic, he reconciled and died a martyr. He wrote a an outline of how the Mass was celebrated in Rome by the celebrant .

Pius XII in Mediator Dei talks about archeologism, which I haven’t read yet, pulling things out and plugging them in, which again is not organic growth as stated above.

 

[BobP123]

NO – allegations are just that – allegations. There is no proof that he was a Mason, there is no evidence supporting such an allegation. Anyone can make a claim against another – but without proof it is meaningless. It is also true that nobody knows the reason for his transfer – both parties are now dead and in God’s hands.

What we do know is that the Church, through her proper authorities, promulgated the Mass and it is, therefore, not a danger to our faith.

For me, that settles the issue.

Deacon Ed

Deacon Ed,

You and I used to argue this point many times on the old Prodigy boards.

Perhaps you’re right about the allegations against Bugnini. Perhaps not. Perhaps there were (other) Masons involved as well. Perhaps none. But you can’t hide the fact that there are strong resemblances between the the meeting place configuration of your local lodge and many of the new churches. Is this supposed to be more God-focused?

How can you convince people there hasn’t been any of that “smoke of Satan” entering the Churches?

 

[pnewton]

One of the problems I have with Vatican II is Archbishop Bugnini and the allegations that he was a Mason and dismissed and exiled to Iran…That doesn’t bother you?

I do not know if any one here has read much Jack Chick, but the Bugnini stories always remind me of him.

BTW - Is Novus Ordinarians the newest name for Catholics?

 

[Uxor]

Deacon Ed,

You and I used to argue this point many times on the old Prodigy boards.

Perhaps you’re right about the allegations against Bugnini. Perhaps not. Perhaps there were (other) Masons involved as well. Perhaps none. But you can’t hide the fact that there are strong resemblances between the the meeting place configuration of your local lodge and many of the new churches. Is this supposed to be more God-focused?

How can you convince people there hasn’t been any of that “smoke of Satan” entering the Churches?

I also read where Mason leaders heralded Vatican II, the New Mass…I have to find it, if you don’t have that info or know of it.

“But you can’t hide the fact that there are strong resemblances between the the meeting place configuration of your local lodge and many of the new churches.” That scares me…I’ve never been to a lodge…do you have any pictures?

 

[BobP123]

I do not know if any one here has read much Jack Chick, but the Bugnini stories always remind me of him.

BTW - Is Novus Ordinarians the newest name for Catholics?

Yes, and some of them even go to Church.

 

[BobP123]

I also read where Mason leaders heralded Vatican II, the New Mass…I have to find it, if you don’t have that info or know of it.

I’ll probably be discredited for them but here are some links for you.

dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Aug/aug9b.htm

geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/fmass.htm

strc.org/June%201998.pdf

wandea.org.pl/liturgical-revolution.htm

christorchaos.com/MasonsMaketheCaseAgainstThemselves.htm

sspx.org/miscellaneous/on_rumors_and_their_source.htm

stjosephschurch.net/deadly.htm

And I didn’t get them from Mel Gibson either.

 

[Uxor]

Thank-you…I still love Mel.

 

[Uxor]

Uh…nope…the Tridentine rite…as the name suggests…had its roots in the Council of Trent.

The Mass *as a sacrifice *was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.
The Eucharist was also instituted at the same time.

Oh please…I continued to hear this here…The Tridentine Mass orginated at Council of Trent. No it did not…I mean some here are actually stripping away its entirely and saying it was created by man not by God. In fact the Traditional Mass goes back further to the time of Moses. Please read the Council of Trent…as a Catholic you have to believe their magisterial teaching.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy…Sacrosanctum Concilium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
I find this interesting…

1. That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress Careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral. Also the general laws governing the structure and meaning of the liturgy must be studied in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms and from the indults conceded to various places.** Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.**

**Organic growth…like a plant, a tree…**not something constructed, fabricated and tacked on or brought back from ten centuries ago, seventeen centuries ago but an organic growth.

Well, sort of. When one restores what was lost it may be consdiered legitimate. As I said, there are only three items that were restored from the past.

The Canon of Hyppolytus…Canon Two…I believe this is where everyone gets 3rd Century…He was a theologian who became a heretic, he reconciled and died a martyr. He wrote a an outline of how the Mass was celebrated in Rome by the celebrant .

Correct.

Pius XII in Mediator Dei talks about archeologism, which I haven’t read yet, pulling things out and plugging them in, which again is not organic growth as stated above.

He specifically refers to wholesale restoration “at all costs” which is not what took place. However, he also addresses this as a discipline – and no pope can bind a future pope in matters of discipline.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon Ed,

You and I used to argue this point many times on the old Prodigy boards.

Perhaps you’re right about the allegations against Bugnini. Perhaps not. Perhaps there were (other) Masons involved as well. Perhaps none. But you can’t hide the fact that there are strong resemblances between the the meeting place configuration of your local lodge and many of the new churches. Is this supposed to be more God-focused?

How can you convince people there hasn’t been any of that “smoke of Satan” entering the Churches?

I was unaware that the lodges had pews, altars, statues, a tabernacle, and so on. The Masonic lodge that I have seen was rather barren, just a table in the middle and some chairs. Quite different from a church, even the more modern ones.

And, no, there is no proof supporting the claim that Abp. Bugnini was a Mason – nor, in fact, is there any evidence that any of the hierarchy were members of the Masons. Further, Vatican II did not dictate anything with regard to Church architecture, only with regard to artwork within the Church. Let’s not bring strawman arguments to bear here, please.

Deacon Ed