What is wrong with Apostolic Succession? Isn’t it an important aspect of Christianity?

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Jimmy_B said:
Apostolic Succession supported in the Bible;
  • Gal 1:19, 2:12
  • 1 Cor 15:7.
  • Acts 1:2,13; cf. Matthew 16:18
  • Acts 1:20-26
  • Acts 12:17, 15:13,19, 21:18
  • Acts 15:1-29 (The Council of Jerusalem)
  • Acts 15:14, 15:13-29
  • Jude 1:3
  • Judges 9:28
  • Isaiah 60:17
  • 2 Chronicles 34:12,17
  • Nehemiah 11:9
  • 2 Kings 11:18
  • Numbers 4:16
  • Job 20:29
  • 1 Peter 2:25
  • 1 Peter 5:1; cf. John 21:15-17
  • John 6:70
  • John 14:26, 16:18
  • Ephesians 2:20
  • Mark 6:30
  • Matthew 10:1-5
  • Revelation 21:14
  • 2 Timothy 4:1-6
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With the exception of Acts 1:20-26, I do not see how any of the Bible verses you listed supports apostolic succession. Were the Apostles important? Nobody denies that. There is a difference however between them being important and passing on their office through succession.

Is there anything the matter with tracing a line back to the Apostle’s? Not that I can think of, but to me the foundation of the Apostles is their teaching as set down in Scripture. How many of those who have been counted as heretics through the ages started out either as bishops or priests? Quite a few and their succession from the Apostles did not protect them from heresy.

How did some of the earliest Christian writers view things?

Clement of Rome
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry.- Clement of Rome (Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 44)
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newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Note that the Apostle’s did appoint ministers but after that Clement indicates that after this they were to be appointed by other eminent men (no reference that this is restricted to those who are bishops), with the approval of the members of the church.

Similarly the Didache tells the members of the church appointing for themselves bishops and deacons.
Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers.-Didache, Chapter 15
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newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

No mention is made that these appointments must be made by other bishops.

Even Cyprian, who was very strong on church unity seemed to feel that the people could choose or remove prelates.
On which account a people obedient to the Lord’s precepts, and fearing God, ought to separate themselves from a sinful prelate, and not to associate themselves with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious priest, especially since they themselves have the power either of choosing worthy priests, or of rejecting unworthy ones.-Cyprian (Epistle 67, Paragraph 3)
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newadvent.org/fathers/050667.htm

Prior to becoming a Montanist, Tertulian indicated that the test of apostolity was doctrine, not succession by appointment.
To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine.-Tertullian (Prescription Against Heresies, Chapter 32)
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newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm
 
SyCarl said:
With the exception of Acts 1:20-26, I do not see how any of the Bible verses you listed supports apostolic succession. Were the Apostles important? Nobody denies that. There is a difference however between them being important and passing on their office through succession.

Is there anything the matter with tracing a line back to the Apostle’s? Not that I can think of, but to me the foundation of the Apostles is their teaching as set down in Scripture. How many of those who have been counted as heretics through the ages started out either as bishops or priests? Quite a few and their succession from the Apostles did not protect them from heresy.

How did some of the earliest Christian writers view things?

Clement of Rome

newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Note that the Apostle’s did appoint ministers but after that Clement indicates that after this they were to be appointed by other eminent men (no reference that this is restricted to those who are bishops), with the approval of the members of the church.

Similarly the Didache tells the members of the church appointing for themselves bishops and deacons.

newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

No mention is made that these appointments must be made by other bishops.

Even Cyprian, who was very strong on church unity seemed to feel that the people could choose or remove prelates.

newadvent.org/fathers/050667.htm

Prior to becoming a Montanist, Tertulian indicated that the test of apostolity was doctrine, not succession by appointment.

[Hello"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm]("http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm[/quote)
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[Hello"]Hello]("http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm[/quote) Sycarl,

Trying to disprove any aspect of Catholicism, by using a Catholic Book (the Bible) or by quoting early Catholic Church Fathers, Catholic Popes and the Catholic Encyclopedia… is ridicules.

What you are attempting to do here, would be like…trying to use milk to disprove the existence of cows.

This is the major error, which is Protestantism, everything “Protestant”, which is in conflict with a Catholic belief, has been %between% taken out of context and/or misunderstood.

If I had the time, which I don’t have at this moment, I could take every single one of your Catholic quotes here, put them in context and demonstrate that they do not disprove anything “Catholic”. In fact, when understood in context, they would all support Catholicism, in one way or another.

Using the Catholic Encyclopedia to try to disprove Catholicism …you’re funny.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Sycarl, do you have a Pastor?

Who baptized you?

Where do the leaders of your denomination derive their authority?

Where do you derive your authority to preach to me?

Can you see my point here? Authority is everything!

You might find the links below, helpful -

FATHERS KNOW BEST

Scripture & Tradition
Apostolic Tradition
The Old Testament Canon

Church & Papacy
Apostolic Succession
The Authority of the Pope Part 1
The Authority of the Pope Part 2
Origins of Peter as Pope
Peter’s Primacy
Peter’s Roman Residency
Peter’s Successors

Source -Catholic Answers Library

I hope this helps. Thank you for your post and have a blessed new year!

Peace
 
SyCarl said:
With the exception of Acts 1:20-26, I do not see how any of the Bible verses you listed supports apostolic succession. Were the Apostles important? Nobody denies that. There is a difference however between them being important and passing on their office through succession.

Is there anything the matter with tracing a line back to the Apostle’s? Not that I can think of, but to me the foundation of the Apostles is their teaching as set down in Scripture. How many of those who have been counted as heretics through the ages started out either as bishops or priests? Quite a few and their succession from the Apostles did not protect them from heresy.

How did some of the earliest Christian writers view things?

Clement of Rome

newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Note that the Apostle’s did appoint ministers but after that Clement indicates that after this they were to be appointed by other eminent men (no reference that this is restricted to those who are bishops), with the approval of the members of the church.

Similarly the Didache tells the members of the church appointing for themselves bishops and deacons.

newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

No mention is made that these appointments must be made by other bishops.

Even Cyprian, who was very strong on church unity seemed to feel that the people could choose or remove prelates.

newadvent.org/fathers/050667.htm

Prior to becoming a Montanist, Tertulian indicated that the test of apostolity was doctrine, not succession by appointment.

newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm
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Hi SyCarl,

I certainly don’t see anything wrong with the ancient practice of consulting the laity regarding the selection of new clergy.

The only thing I would object to would be the idea of the laity taking the selection process upon themselves entirely, or dispensing with the sacramental ordination by a Bishop.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm
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[Hello](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm Hello) Sycarl,

Trying to disprove any aspect of Catholicism, by using a Catholic Book (the Bible) or by quoting early Catholic Church Fathers, Catholic Popes and the Catholic Encyclopedia… is ridicules.

This is really a very weak reply to say that the fathers cannot contradict the Church because they were Catholic… That does not deal with what they actually say. If the fathers say something that supports what I say, I will certainly use them.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with being able to show a line of succession from the Apostles. However, it does not guarantee truth and is not necessary for a valid church. I know that you do not agree with what I say and I do not expect you to since if you did you would not be Catholic.

By the way, none of my links are to the Catholic Encyclopedia. They are to the New Advent site that includes the Catholic Encyclopedia. I could just as easily have linked to the Classical Christian Ethereal Library as the translation of the fathers at New Advent is taken from the Protestant, Philip Schaff’s work.

My minister is ordained by the Presbyterian Church in Canada as a result of an extensive discernment and educational process. He is called by the congregation subject to the approval of the higher church councils.

Finally, I am not preaching to you. I am presenting my view to you but don’t expect you to change yours. I have the same authority to do that as you have to express your opinions here.
 
SyCarl said:
This is really a very weak reply to say that the fathers cannot contradict the Church because they were Catholic… That does not deal with what they actually say. If the fathers say something that supports what I say, I will certainly use them.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with being able to show a line of succession from the Apostles. However, it does not guarantee truth and is not necessary for a valid church. I know that you do not agree with what I say and I do not expect you to since if you did you would not be Catholic.

By the way, none of my links are to the Catholic Encyclopedia. They are to the New Advent site that includes the Catholic Encyclopedia. I could just as easily have linked to the Classical Christian Ethereal Library as the translation of the fathers at New Advent is taken from the Protestant, Philip Schaff’s work.

My minister is ordained by the Presbyterian Church in Canada as a result of an extensive discernment and educational process. He is called by the congregation subject to the approval of the higher church councils.

Finally, I am not preaching to you. I am presenting my view to you but don’t expect you to change yours. I have the same authority to do that as you have to express your opinions here.
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Hello Again SyCarl,

Your comments are in blue, italic -

This is really a very weak reply to say that the fathers cannot contradict the Church because they were Catholic…

I never said that the Church Fathers couldn’t say things, which might have contradicted the early Catholic Church. It would be wrong to assume that everything a Pope or Church Father says is Infallible.

There have been examples in early Christian history were some were wrong and later change their opinions, which then fell in-line with Catholic doctrine.

One can find examples in the New Testament, where people were initially wrong in their beliefs and later corrected and changed their beliefs. If you read the Church Fathers, and I assume you have, then you already know this.

Even, Martin Luther changed his position many times. However, at the end of the day, when everything is all said and done, there can only exist one Christian truth and that Truth exists in Catholicism.

My minister is ordained by the Presbyterian Church in Canada as a result of an extensive discernment and educational process. He is called by the congregation subject to the approval of the higher church councils.

What do you mean by called? Now, we are back to the issue of authority, aren’t we?

Finally, I am not preaching to you. I am presenting my view to you but don’t expect you to change yours.

Fair enough.

I have the same authority to do that as you have to express your opinions here

Here is where I have to disagree. I have no authority to “preach” against Catholic doctrine or Catholic beliefs. If I do, then, I am in error. If I am corrected and found to be in conflict with the Catholic Church, I must then submit and surrender to the Church’s authority, doctrine and teachings.

I hope this helps. What did you think of the picture that I posted here, on the first post?

BTW, New Advent is a Catholic web site….

Thank you for your response.

Peace
 
SyCarl said:
Even Cyprian, who was very strong on church unity seemed to feel that the people could choose or remove prelates.
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Others will refute your misinterpretation of Catholic history and documents. For now, I will refute this one.

Your interpretation of St. Cyprian’s letter is rather strange. The laity could not remove their prelates. Only other bishops could remove bishops. Nothing in St. Cyprian’s letter indicates in the least that the laity had the authority to remove their prelates.

And though the laity could choose their bishops at this time (as congregations were still small enough), the “laying on of hands” - the passing on of the authority to teach and dispense the Sacraments - has always and ever been in the hands of bishops. Granted, in the earliest days, bishops were more commonly identified as “clergy” - i.e., distinct from the laity. The term nowadays is used to refer more commonly to presbyters/priests. But the earlier use of the term “clergy” should not cause you to mistake the fact that bishops were distinguished from the presbyters.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Peter_J said:
In theory, I suppose we could return to that situation by ordaining every Priest to the episcopate, but that seems a little far-fetched.
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But this assumes that a specific office of Bishop is even necessary.
 
Peter_J said:
Your words and actions say very different things. If you consider it to be so weak, why did you even bother responding to it?
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The above comment related to the reply to my use of the church fathers. The rest of my post addressed his other questions.
 
mardukm said:
Others will refute your misinterpretation of Catholic history and documents. For now, I will refute this one.

Your interpretation of St. Cyprian’s letter is rather strange. The laity could not remove their prelates. Only other bishops could remove bishops. Nothing in St. Cyprian’s letter indicates in the least that the laity had the authority to remove their prelates.

And though the laity could choose their bishops at this time (as congregations were still small enough), the “laying on of hands” - the passing on of the authority to teach and dispense the Sacraments - has always and ever been in the hands of bishops. Granted, in the earliest days, bishops were more commonly identified as “clergy” - i.e., distinct from the laity. The term nowadays is used to refer more commonly to presbyters/priests. But the earlier use of the term “clergy” should not cause you to mistake the fact that bishops were distinguished from the presbyters.

Blessings,
Marduk
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Cyprian is writing to Spain about 2 bishops who were removed for idolatry. The quote given quite clearly indicates that the people have the obligation to remove themselves from a sinful prelate. He says they, referring to the people, of rejecting unworthy priests and of selecting new ones.

It is quite clear that the people essentially have a veto over the ordination of the clergy. It should also be noted that Cyprian was critical of the Pope who had supported one of the deposed bishops.
 
Apostolic Succession

*“to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” *(Acts 1:25)

*“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.” *(Ephesians 2:19,20)

“And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,”(Ephesians 4:11,12)

*“Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues…” *(1 Corinthians12: 28,29)

*“For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: 'May another take his office.” *(Acts 1:20)

*“They drove out many demons, and they anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them.” *(Mark 6:13)

“When he was in Bethany reclining at table in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of perfumed oil, costly genuine spikenard. She broke the alabaster jar and poured it on his head”. (Mark 14:3)

*“They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them” *(Acts 6:6)

*“Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.” *(Acts 13:3)

*“Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins. Keep yourself pure.” *(1 Timothy 5:22)

“**They **appointed **presbyters **for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.”(Acts 14:23)

*“Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.” *(1 Timothy 4:14)

*“For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands” *(2 Timothy 1:6)

Note: In 2 Timothy 1:6, Paul is recalling his ordination of Timothy. See 2 Timothy 1:1-8.
 
Apostolic Succession (continued from last post)

“This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task”.** (1 Timothy 3:1) **

*“For a bishop as God’s steward…” *(Titus 1:7)

*“Yes, and I ask you also, my true yokemate, 3 to help them, for they have struggled at my side in promoting the gospel, along with Clement and my other co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.” *(Philippians 4:3)

Note: Saint Clement was the forth Pope. Here is the list of Popes, going all the way back to Saint Peter.

*“and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” *(1 Peter 2:5)

“For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you*, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”*

**Note: **Saint Paul is recalling this tradition.

“**They **appointed **presbyters **for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.”(Acts 14:23)

*“Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.” *(1 Timothy 4:14)
 
*Apostolic Succession (continued from last post)
*“For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands” *(2 Timothy 1:6)

Note: In 2 Timothy 1:6, Paul is recalling his ordination of Timothy. See 2 Timothy 1:1-8.

“This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task”.** (1 Timothy 3:1) **

*“For a bishop as God’s steward…” *(Titus 1:7)

*“Yes, and I ask you also, my true yokemate, 3 to help them, for they have struggled at my side in promoting the gospel, along with Clement and my other co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.” *(Philippians 4:3)

Note: Saint Clement was the forth Pope. Here is the list of Popes, going all the way back to Saint Peter.

*“and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” *(1 Peter 2:5)

“For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you*, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”*

**Note: **Saint Paul recalling this tradition.
 
Hello, MDK,

Exactly, Bishops are the successors of the Apostles and they are very necessary. Additionally, the Pope is the successor to Saint Peter and he is very necessary as well.

How any Christian, could come to any other conclusion is beyond me.

Additionally -
The sign of the one true Church of Christ is that, the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Apostolic tradition began when Christ chose his Apostles.

Bishops today are the successors to the Apostles.

The Bishop of Rome, the Catholic Pope, is the successor to Saint Peter.

This fact is supported by Christian teachings and beliefs, passed down to us by way of Christian Tradition, in the context of Christian and Salvation History. This fact is also supported biblically.

All three; Christian Tradition/Christian beliefs, Christian History, and the Bible, have been passed down to us by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, which is the same Holy Spirit, which fell onto the Apostles at Pentecost, has been passed down to us; an unbroken chain.
“When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit …”
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(Acts 2:1-4)
*
 
Continued from last post -

The same Holy Spirit, which filled the Apostles, has been passed down through time, through the Church, by way of Papal and Apostolic Succession; an unbroken chain.

The Holy Spirit has been passed down to every Catholic, by way of the Holy Sacraments. This, passing down of the Holy Spirit, links us back to Christ’s time on earth and to the first Apostles chosen by Christ. Hence, connecting us to Christ Himself.

The Church and the Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church, keeps us connected to the early Church and to Christ.

When a baby is baptized, for example, a Catholic Priest instantly connects that baby to Christ, to the early Church, and to the present Church. It is at that point that the baby becomes a Christian.

Catholic Priests receive the Holy Spirit and authority to baptize, perform, and dispense all of the other Sacraments, because of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

The ordained, Catholic Priest that touches, blessed and baptized that baby, was touched, blessed and baptized by another, ordained, Catholic Priest who was also touched, blessed and baptized by another Catholic Priest…and so on and so on….all the way back to the Apostles and to Christ.

Furthermore, priests are touched, blessed and ordained by Catholic Bishops, who themselves were ordained by another Bishop, all the way back to the Apostles and to Christ; passing down the Holy Sprit.

The laying on of hands or “Imposition of hands”,where the Holy Spirit is passed down; an unbroken chain goes all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. There are even examples of this in the Old Testament. Isaac blessed his son Jacob by laying hands. (Genesis 27). Moreover, in the Old Testament priests were ordained by the laying on of hands, as they are today.

At priestly ordination, the Catholic Bishop imposes hands upon the deacon, who is by that action and the form of the consecratory preface, ordained to the priesthood. By the power of the Holy Spirit, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders that priest now has the authority to dispense Sacraments.



The Holy Spirit was passed down to us, all the way back to Jesus; an unbroken chain.

When Catholics are confirmed (following, Catechism and Confirmation instruction), they receive the Holy Sprit, by way of the Sacrament of Confirmation, where a Catholic Bishop dispenses the Sacrament, during this process, using Holy oil (Chrism), the Bishop makes the Sign of the Cross on that person’s forehead. This is another example where the Holy Spirit is passed down and reinforced.

The mark of the beast is placed onto the foreheads of his slaves (Revelations 13:14-18). The “mark” or sign of Christ is His Cross, which is placed onto a Catholic’s forehead, during Confirmation.
**
*
Hippolytus
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contrasts the seal (or mark) of baptism, the mark given by Christ to his believers, with the mark of the beast
(Hippolyt., De Christo et Antichristo, n. 6);

Here
*
 
Steadfast said:
But this assumes that a specific office of Bishop is even necessary.
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?

I would have thought that was something we agreed upon.

In the early Church, there was at first only the office of Bishop. Then the Bishops appointed Deacons (“It is not right for us to neglect the Word of God to wait on tables”, etc.) Later still, the office of Priest (or, more precisely, Priests who aren’t Bishops) was established.

Or looking at it another way, at first all Priests were Bishops. Later on, some Priests were Bishops and some Priests were not Bishops.
 
SyCarl said:
Cyprian is writing to Spain about 2 bishops who were removed for idolatry. The quote given quite clearly indicates that the people have the obligation to remove themselves from a sinful prelate. He says they, referring to the people, of rejecting unworthy priests and of selecting new ones.
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On which account a people obedient to the Lord’s precepts, and fearing God, ought to separate themselves from a sinful prelate, and not to associate themselves with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious priest, especially since they themselves have the power either of choosing worthy priests, or of rejecting unworthy ones.-Cyprian (Epistle 67, Paragraph 3)
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You make an interesting point.

According the St. Robert Bellarmine, if a Pope falls into heresy, he ceases to be Pope and can be replaced.

The quote from St. Cyprian would seem to go beyond this, opening up at least the possibility of a Pope (he doesn’t explicitly include the Pope but he doesn’t exclude him either) being replaced on the basis of sinfulness.
 
 
SyCarl said:
Cyprian is writing to Spain about 2 bishops who were removed for idolatry. The quote given quite clearly indicates that the people have the obligation to remove themselves from a sinful prelate. He says they, referring to the people, of rejecting unworthy priests and of selecting new ones.
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No, it simply means - exactly as it says - they are to remove themselves from his authority - i.e., not follow him in any way. The laity don’t have, nor ever have had, the authority to remove the bishop from office. Only other bishops can do that.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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