What is wrong with capitalism?

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Human rights are not a fundamental basis of government, they exist due to God’s creation of man, in God’s likeness. Capitalism subservient to such a government – fundamentally based-on human rights – is wrong. How it is this “wrongness” of capitalism, exists, probably is most simply explained as a matter of replacement. As an example, albeit a weak one, The United Nations was drafted by the victors, of World War II, in a feeble effort to prevent a future World War III, (What made another World War forseeable at the time, shortly after such destruction: I do not know, but internationally few, if any, were living in the fear of World War III.), The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drafted. An ironic, silly, document drafted by well known advocates of private property – NOT! – like Alexandre Bogomolov of The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and China’s Dr. Peng-chun Chang. . Article 6 is a real beauty, essentially, saying: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law. Unfortunately, sorely lacking a definition of person, hundreds of millions of babies have been conveniently aborted in their mother’s womb, or shortly upon their first several gasps for air, out of their mother’s vaginal canal. “To the victors go the spoils!”. Do we understand the meaning of the expression, “Capitalist Pigs!”, now? It’s a private property issue. For whatever reason, I am somewhat disgusted with a number of the posts I have read, completely avoiding an honest answer to the question, but … .
 
Funny when I read my bible of what Jesus preached ( sermon on the mount ) its in direct conflict with capitalism , no to mention you need to realize how much propaganda is involved in justifying it.
 
PeterGStanley #103
Funny when I read my bible of what Jesus preached ( sermon on the mount ) its in direct conflict with capitalism , no to mention you need to realize how much propaganda is involved in justifying it.
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What exactly?
 
I guess I need to get a copy of the capitalist bible where Jesus preaches trickle down economics and Ronald Reagan is sitting beside Jesus in heaven.
 
No one should be misled by those who do not know Christ’s teaching, are confused as to the meaning of free enterprise developed by Catholics, affirmed by Bl John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, and are unable to justify their confusion.

Just as Christ’s parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business, so does the parable of the Dishonest Steward – the steward is dishonest, “but the nature of his work is not. In fact by praising his shrewdness, Christ admires his opportunism. While the steward abuses the trust his master extends to him, it must be recognised that the nature of the work that is entrusted to him is fundamentally good. The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 47].
 
What’s wrong with Capitalism?

Greed.
Materialism.
Selfishness.
Consumption.
Commodification of everything - everything has a price and is for sale to the right bidder.
 
When will triumphguy realise the emphatic benefits of free enterprise as Bl John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have, and come to understand that it is not the market that is guilty, and that “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.”? (Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36).
 
I don’t know, why not ask him 😛

Hey Abu I’m self employed, own my own business (mind my own business), and get no breaks from the state whatsoever.

If I don’t make money my kids go hungry - yes I’ve been there. And if I do well I can make more in one month than a teacher does in a year.

However, it doesn’t make me blind to the rampant greed, materialism, consumerism and commodification that can be the result of unchecked capitalism. Dangers that Popes throughout the ages have warned against. Nor have they been in unbridled admiration of Capitalism.

As Pope Leo XIII wrote in Rerum Noverum

“Private ownership, as we have seen, is the natural right of man, and to exercise that right, especially as members of society, is not only lawful, but absolutely necessary. “It is lawful,” says St. Thomas Aquinas, “for a man to hold private property; and it is also necessary for the carrying on of human existence.”” But if the question be asked: How must one’s possessions be used? - the Church replies without hesitation in the words of the same holy Doctor: “Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need.”

And John Paul II warning about the “structures of sin” in Sollicitudo rei socialis

“among the actions and attitudes opposed to the will of God, the good of neighbor and the “structures” created by them, two are very typical: on the one hand, the all-consuming desire for profit, and on the other, the thirst for power, with the intention of imposing one’s will upon others.”
 
triumphguy #110
it doesn’t make me blind to the rampant greed, materialism, consumerism and commodification that can be the result of unchecked capitalism.
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Good to see a rational response at last.
Those vices belong to people NOT to free enterprise, as Pope Benedict XVI is at pains to make very clear.
The Catholic way: free enterprise, sound laws, and the morals that maketh the man. That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and to ensure competition. It is people who commit crimes.
“Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need.”
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The right to private property is unalienable as the popes have affirmed; the necessity, in solidarity and subsidiarity, to assist others in need is equally affirmed.

Where does the Church ever condone vices? Never.

Where does the Church emphatically affirm free enterprise? In Her Scriptures, and Her social teaching.
Free enterprise, which is acknowledged as enabling the ‘fundamental human “right to freedom of economic initiative.” ’ (*Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Human Concerns), Encyclical, 1987, #42).

On Caritas in Veritate Fr John De Celles points out that the Pope clearly states that “The Church does not have technical solutions to offer” [CV 9]. Also, not only does the encyclical not even once use the world ‘capitalism’, but it does refer repeatedly to the ‘market economy,’ a term of art which Pope John Paul II used to refer to that form of capitalism that is ‘the path to true economic and civil progress.’ See Centesimus Annus, 42. And rather than attacking capitalism Benedict generally embraces it, while calling for its renewal, as it were, in charity and moral truth. It is this renewal that will make the old order ‘new.’
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9102
 
Caritas in Veritate is not a hymn in praise of the free enterprise system. It warns that the a “binary model of market-plus-State is corrosive of society, while economic forms based on solidarity, which find their natural home in civil society without being restricted to it, build up society (39).”

In para 40 Benedict XVI writes: “Today’s international economic scene, marked by grave deviations and failures, requires a profoundly new way of understanding business enterprise.”

He goes on to say: “Without doubt, one of the greatest risks for businesses is that they are almost exclusively answerable to their investors, thereby limiting their social value (40).”

Throughout the encyclical he reiterates that the only capital society should be really focused on his “human capital:” "the primary capital to be safeguarded and valued is man, the human person in his or her integrity: “Man is the source, the focus and the aim of all economic and social life(26).”

Benedict warns of the grave consequences to democracy in the increasing economic polarization in the world: “Through the systemic increase of social inequality, both within a single country and between the populations of different countries (i.e. the massive increase in relative poverty), not only does social cohesion suffer, thereby placing democracy at risk, but so too does the economy, through the progressive erosion of “social capital”: the network of relationships of trust, dependability, and respect for rules, all of which are indispensable for any form of civil coexistence (32).”

And: “Human costs always include economic costs, and economic dysfunctions always involve human costs.”

And so it goes…

All in all, hardly a ringing endorsement for ANY existing economic model or system.

What Benedict does endorse is “solidarity.” This word is used 40 timers in the encyclical.
Recalling Paul VI’s encyclical Populorum progressio Benedict describes Paul’s encyclical as

“a social teaching of great importance: he underlined the indispensable importance of the Gospel for building a society according to freedom and justice, in the ideal and historical perspective of a civilization animated by love. Paul VI clearly understood that the social question had become worldwide [25] and he grasped the interconnection between the impetus towards the unification of humanity and the Christian ideal of a single family of peoples in solidarity and fraternity.”

So what is wrong with Capitalism? Benedict and John Paul II and Paul VI have given us a clear indication in their writings.
 
triumphguy #112
economic forms based on solidarity, which find their natural home in civil society without being restricted to it, build up society (39)
hardly a ringing endorsement for ANY existing economic model or system.
So what is wrong with Capitalism? Benedict and John Paul II and Paul VI have given us a clear indication in their writings.
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It is the vices of people that are condemned, not the free enterprise developed by the Late Catholic Scholastics, based on the principles of cause and effect.

It is wise to consider some insightful comments on Caritas in Veritate.
**Richard Garnett: **
“It was predictable, but is nevertheless regrettable, that many pundits and partisans would respond to Caritas in Veritate not so much by engaging Pope Benedict’s profoundly Christian humanism but instead by hunting through the text for quotations they could deploy in support of their own pet policies. (The Pope, for his part, urged “all people of good will” to “liberate [themselves] from ideologies, which often oversimplify reality in artificial ways.”) Rather than reflecting carefully on the Pope’s central proposal, namely, that “[f]idelity to man requires fidelity to the truth, which alone is the guarantee of freedom and of the possibility of integral human development,” commentators who might ordinarily roll their eyes at policy suggestions from the bishop of Rome are happy to uproot from the encyclical’s inspiring, challenging vision a few talking points about environmental stewardship, trade unionism, or the redistribution of wealth.
Richard Garnett is professor of law at Notre Dame University.
freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2289208/posts

Supreme Knight criticizes use of Pope’s encyclical for political agendas
cna ^ | July 7, 2009
“When you look in Africa where you see dictators that are presidents of countries that retire from office with billions of dollars in their Swiss bank accounts while their people are living on one dollar a day, is that just redistribution?”
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2287608/posts

“The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed. For a long time it was thought that poor peoples should remain at a fixed stage of development, and should be content to receive assistance from the philanthropy of developed peoples. Paul VI strongly opposed this mentality in Populorum Progressio.” (CeV #42).

Here we see the core of the Pope’s “redistributist” large-scale meaning: it is through training, entrepreneurship, work and supplying, at competitive prices through trade, what others need in other countries. Additionally we see the importance of sound management – often neglected today.

Fr Sirico sums up the theme and direction of Caritas in Veritate perfectly:
“Several commentators have worried about his frequent calls for wealth redistribution. Benedict does see a role for the state here, but much of the needed redistribution is the result of every voluntary and mutually beneficial exchange. To understand such passages fully and accurately, we do well to put our political biases on the shelf.

“The encyclical doesn’t attack capitalism or offer models for nations to adopt. ‘The Church does not have technical solutions to offer,’ the pope firmly states, and does not claim ‘to interfere in any way in the politics of States.’

“This encyclical is a theological version of his predecessor’s more philosophical effort to anchor the free economy’s ethical foundation. Much of it stands squarely with a long tradition of writings of a certain “classical liberal” tradition, one centered on the moral foundation of economics, from St. Thomas Aquinas and his disciples, Frederic Bastiat in the 19th century, Wilhelm Roepke, and even the secular F.A. Hayek in the 20th century. It also clearly resonates with some European Christian democratic thought.

“Simply put, to this pope’s mind, there is no just or moral system without just and moral people.”
 
Hey you brought Caritas in Veritate up, not me!😛

I don’t have an agenda! Like I said I feed my kids on my capitalist endeavours!😛 I was just answering the OP:

What’s wrong with Capitalism?

I could give just as long a diatribe on what is wrong with Marxism, or historical determinism, or liberalism or the monarchy, or even democracy for that matter…

I’ll highlight your last quote:

“Simply put, to this pope’s mind, there is no just or moral system without just and moral people.”

But I do know that with rampant deregulation and the commodifcation of everything and the monetizing of everything we are on the brink of financial and economic collapse. Globalization, huge multinationals, rampant banks and “investment” houses, toxic debt, the McEducating and McJobbing of our kids are serious threats to our future.

We’ve seen communism fail, maybe it’s our turn. It scares the heck out of me, but it’s possible!

If I have an agenda it’s for movements like Slow Money, for farmers like Joel Salatin, and charitable endeavours like Kiva.org.
 
triumphguy
I could give just as long a diatribe on what is wrong with Marxism, or historical determinism, or liberalism or the monarchy, or even democracy for that matter…
We’ve seen communism fail, maybe it’s our turn. It scares the heck out of me, but it’s possible!
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The immense difference, considering Catholic Social Teaching, is that Communism, Socialism and the Welfare State have all been condemned, while free enterprise and entrepreneurship have been lauded first by Christ in the Parables of the Dishonest Steward and The Talents, by Fathers of the Church, and by Popes.

“Western institutions, though often originating in Athens and Jerusalem, were developed into a Catholic culture in a process that accelerated from the early Middle Ages right up to the time of the Reformation and the Enlightenment. At that point, the progenitors of these distinct rebellions against the Church began using Western institutions for their own particular purposes, growing out of but foreign to their Catholic origins…. Woods notes, ‘Western civilization stands indebted to the Church for the university system, charitable work, international law, the sciences, and, important legal principles. … Western civilization owes far more to the Catholic Church than most people — Catholic included — often realize. … The Church, in fact, built Western civilization.’…. Woods points out that noted economic historian Joseph Schumpeter not only acknowledges the contributions of the late Scholastics to modern economics, but says "it is they who come nearer than any other group to having been ‘founders’ of scientific economics.’ ” (Father John McCloskey, reviewing *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *by Thomas E. Woods Jr. - published by Regnery Publishing, 2005).

What has faltered is Western Civilization, built by the Church, but undermined by the present worsening in reason and faith, the obvious result of the relativism and secularism following the Protestant Revolt and so-called Enlightenment – that anything goes.

The economic crisis can be traced to 80 years ago in the U.S.A. when the U.S. administration began finagling with the economy and undermining free enterprise.
 
carn said:
Before trying to answer the thread question, please take a look at the following “code of conduct” for a government:

Protect the rights of everybody and respect the rule of law with basic human rights forming the foundation of the law. This includes property rights and therefore any interference into property rights is like the interference into any other human right (e.g. life,liberty) is only possible according to laws and such laws are only valid and may be passed if there is sufficient reason for the interference, which can only arise from the protection of human rights (e.g. poor people should not starve, so non-poor may be forced to provide the food/means for food if a voluntary solution does not work, voluntary solution preferable because then no interference into rights necessary).

However i look at this, i cannot see any evil in this, except that maybe having a government at all is risky because governments are powerful and power can corrupt.

The problem is, if a government would act accordingly, its country would be what a lot of people would name wild-west capitalism because people would mostly be free to use their property as they want to. And such a country would probably be far more capitalistic than nearly any country today and the ones today are deemed to be far too capitalistic by many.

So how does the wrongness get into capitalism, if even a moral government would have capitalism all over the place, and what exactly is wrong about capitalism?

Greed is of course a problem, but greed is a problem for any system just like other vices.
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I have not read the rest of the responses and time is very very short for me; however, this is a major concern for me and I would like to give a response from a person on Catholic Answers by the name of Abu he writes, " The confusion of economics with morality is endless" then he goes on to quote Fr James Sadowsky, S. J. professor emeritus of philosophy at Fordham University, expressed it well when he said that ethics is prescriptive while economics is descriptive. 'Economics…indicates the probable effects of certain policies while ethics determines what one should do. These are two very different things (Dr. Thomas E. Woods, Jr. The Church and the Market, Lexington Books, 2005, page 31

I would also suggest a very easy read “The Law” by Frederic Bastiat
 
Abu said:
No one should be misled by those who do not know Christ’s teaching, are confused as to the meaning of free enterprise developed by Catholics, affirmed by Bl John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, and are unable to justify their confusion.

Just as Christ’s parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business, so does the parable of the Dishonest Steward – the steward is dishonest, “but the nature of his work is not. In fact by praising his shrewdness, Christ admires his opportunism. While the steward abuses the trust his master extends to him, it must be recognised that the nature of the work that is entrusted to him is fundamentally good. The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 47].
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Thanks for joining this blog Abu. Now, I will make a special effort to read it.👍👍👍👍
 
Read somewhere recently that the problem the Church sees with capitalism is that man ends up serving wealth rather than wealth serving man.
 
Dirt said:
from the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Ch. 6, wherin Christ Jesus says;
"[19] Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal. [20] But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.

[21] For where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also."

“[24] No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”
" Mammon: That is, riches, worldly interest.

from the Gospel of Saint Mark;
“[21] And Jesus looking on him, loved him, and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. [22] Who being struck sad at that saying, went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [23] And Jesus looking round about, saith to his disciples: How hardly shall they that have riches, enter into the kingdom of God! [24] And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus again answering, saith to them: Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches, to enter into the kingdom of God?
[25] It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

Should we not focus more on the economy of Salvation?

Scripture from: drbo.org/
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Are these scriptures in support of a free market or otherwise:confused:
 
triumphguy said:
What’s wrong with Capitalism?

Greed.
Materialism.
Selfishness.
Consumption.
Commodification of everything - everything has a price and is for sale to the right bidder.
Click to expand...
I find it strange that you think these vices are unique to capitalism. These are human vices that are found in people worldwide, in every economic system. Do you mean to say that capitalism inflames these vices? That is at least something that could be discussed.

The communist can be greedy the same as the capitalist just like the poor can be just as greedy as the rich. In fact greed, a vice, can surely lead to destruction.

The most popular anti-capitalist system, communism, was based on the denial of any metaphysical reality and thus was by its very nature materialistic. It reduced man’s existence to a question of how many possessions he had or had the right to use.

Selfishness is found everywhere. What makes you think the selfish will not be the people who rise up in government positions allegedly fighting the selfishness of the free market? Political power is even greater than economic power.

Consumption is the goal of people in every economic system. The goal of a redistributive political system is to make it so that certain people consume less and certain people more. Apart from a system that tries to abolish the division of labor all systems are geared towards increasing consumption.

Under government control of the economy the politician or bureaucrat can have a price for which he will sell his power. There are many things which are not for sale under capitalism. Many people try to hold onto family land and keep it undeveloped under capitalism, until property taxes force them to sell it. Under capitalism anyone could prostitute themselves, ignoring for a fact it is often illegal, but very few actually do.

I think your list is not meaningful. Yes, we see vice under capitalism but again that is because we are human. You’ll find vice everywhere.
 
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