What is wrong with capitalism?

[RCIA4]

Do you teach RCIA? and if so, do you teach them this?

LOL… When I become supreme imperator and dictator of the states!

Then capitalism will fall and a new order based on distributism will come about and all will prosper!

No jk… But seriously I lived in a Catholic worker house for an entire summer between my senior year in high school and freshman college year…

That’s what led me to RCIA was Catholic social teaching… Yes I don’t like capitalism and yes I would prefer to see the destruction of free markets replaced by worker’s cooperatives, joint public/private corporations, small businesses, nonprofits, and a few state owned corporations in there

My RCIA catechist thinks I’m nuts… But the priest in my parish is a Jesuit! The man defends me on a weekly basis…

 

[RCIA4]

And don’t forget the trade unions! They must have a role too! Catholic unions like in Europe

 

[John21652]

And don’t forget the trade unions! They must have a role too! Catholic unions like in Europe

Trade unions are rent seekers. They distort the free exchange of labor, money and the efficient allocation of resources.

There are libraries around the world full of the proof. Start researching.

 

[Abu]

RCIA4 #181
Yes I don’t like capitalism and yes I would prefer to see the destruction of free markets replaced by worker’s cooperatives, joint public/private corporations, small businesses, nonprofits, and a few state owned corporations in there

The ignorance here is appalling.

How strange to advocate the dictate to “enforce distributism” – yet this is Belloc’s “consistent, sustained aggression against private property, involving punitive taxation, and restrictions on the use of private property. It rests on coercion and threats of violence and imprisonment…” (Thomas E Woods , Jr., The Church and the Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 168).

Distributism has never had wide-spread support. One of the reasons may be that “the market economy consists of voluntary property exchanges. There is no mechanism of ‘distribution’ whatsoever.” (Thomas E Woods, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 161, 201). While Distributism may be impractical as a societal norm, especially as Catholic social teaching recognises the tremendous benefits of free enterprise, condemns socialism, and proposes no “third way”, anyone is free to practise it.

Anyone is free to follow the idea.
“Those who care to support locally based and smaller-scale agriculture have already been doing so for two decades now by means of community-supported agriculture, which is booming. On a purely voluntary basis, people who wish to support local agriculture pay several hundred dollars at the beginning of the year to provide the farmer with the capital he needs; they then receive locally grown produce for the rest of the year. The organizers of this movement, rather than wasting their time and ours complaining about the need for state intervention, actually did something: they put together a voluntary program that has enjoyed considerable success across the country. Perhaps, if distributists feel as strongly about their position as they claim, this example can provide a model of how their time might be better spent.” What’s Wrong with ‘Distributism’, Thomas E. Woods, Jr., October 6, 2002, at: lewrockwell.com/woods/woods136.html

My RCIA catechist thinks I’m nuts

As does every other sensible person simply because you despise Popes who emphatically support free enterprise, denigrate papal social teaching, try to tar and feather those who follow papal social teaching, and fail dismally to appreciate faith and reason. The Sacred Scriptures call such people zealots which equates to bigots.

 

[John21652]

LOL… When I become supreme imperator and dictator of the states!

And you’ll be on “wanted” posters all over the land.

Then capitalism will fall and a new order based on distributism will come about and all will prosper!

Your “system” is based on the whim of the dictator. That has failed miserably throughout history. Democracy was invented to keep tyrants and hubristic monsters like you in line.

No jk… But seriously I lived in a Catholic worker house for an entire summer between my senior year in high school and freshman college year…

And you still have so much to learn about the “real” world…

That’s what led me to RCIA was Catholic social teaching…

Which Catholic social teaching?.

Yes I don’t like capitalism and yes I would prefer to see the destruction of free markets

Which is anathema to Catholoic doctrine and to the exercise of Free Will.

replaced by worker’s cooperatives, joint public/private corporations, small businesses, nonprofits, and a few state owned corporations in there

So you want a mixed economy…That requires capitalism, so you have contradicted yourself.

Remember, that worker’s cooperatives, private corporations and state owned corporations all require a plethora of laws, rules and regulations and a massive bureaucracy to administer them. Hence, you’ve now diverted a goodly portion of your state assets to unproductive policing work. Bureaucracies are also notorious for becoming self seeking entities which seek to grow their share of the economic pie at the expense of the productive sectors of an economy.

My RCIA catechist thinks I’m nuts… But the priest in my parish is a Jesuit! The man defends me on a weekly basis…

You are certainly misguided and uninformed. The support of a Jesuit doesn’t make it otherwise.

 

[RCIA4]

Calm down guys!!! Geesh I was joking about the dictator part LOL…

You two have no sense of humor

As for capitalism the Servant of God Dorothy Day didn’t like capitalism either

And you guys are hurting my feelings by using mean names…

Be charitable please

 

[John21652]

Calm down guys!!! Geesh I was joking about the dictator part LOL…

Obviously, which is why I played along with your 'theme". Didn’t you get it?

You two have no sense of humor

On the contrary, humour is most evident in our responses.

As for capitalism the Servant of God Dorothy Day didn’t like capitalism either

Neither did Josef Stalin.

And you guys are hurting my feelings by using mean names…

Now who’s got no sense of humour?

Be charitable please

Disagreeing with you is not being uncharitable.

Now, you’ve got a lot of questions to answer…

 

[RCIA4]

I’m still against pure capitalism and rampant free markets…

I can support limited heavily regulated mixed economies with the combination I mentioned…

And John read up on Christian and Catholic trade unions… They’re sanctioned by the Vatican!

This is all based on my work in as a Catholic Worker… Our founder is on her way to Sainthood… There’s a big difference between Day and Stalin kind sir

Here is a priest on the Church’s feelings on unions bustedhalo.com/questionbox/what-does-the-catholic-church-teach-about-labor-unions

 

[John21652]

I’m still against pure capitalism and rampant free markets…

All you are doing here is repeating yourself. You are not answering the questions, or addressing the points I and Abu made. Until you do, you have no argument.

I can support limited heavily regulated mixed economies with the combination I mentioned…

Ho hum…

And John read up on Christian and Catholic trade unions… They’re sanctioned by the Vatican!

You are sidestepping the point. I stated that trade unions are rent seekers. Now, please, address this point.

This is all based on my work in as a Catholic Worker… Our founder is on her way to Sainthood… There’s a big difference between Day and Stalin kind sir

However, you showed us that the two of them had something in common. Your originalm point is not proved by giving one example, which is the point I was making. By the way, Pol Pot was against free markets too. See, I’m now one up!

Here is a priest on the Church’s feelings on unions bustedhalo.com/questionbox/what-does-the-catholic-church-teach-about-labor-unions

A Priests “feelings” on trade unions does not alter the fact that, right 'round the world, trade unions display rent seeking behaviour. Go look it up.

 

[RCIA4]

All you are doing here is repeating yourself. You are not answering the questions, or addressing the points I and Abu made. Until you do, you have no argument.

Ho hum…

You are sidestepping the point. I stated that trade unions are rent seekers. Now, please, address this point.

However, you showed us that the two of them had something in common. Your originalm point is not proved by giving one example, which is the point I was making. By the way, Pol Pot was against free markets too. See, I’m now one up!

A Priests “feelings” on trade unions does not alter the fact that, right 'round the world, trade unions display rent seeking behaviour. Go look it up.

But the Church sanctions organized labor!!

 

[John21652]

But the Church sanctions organized labor!! I will pray for you brother…

I never said otherwise. I said trade unions have a habit of exhibiting rent seeking behaviour. Do you even know what that means?

Still refusing to answer the questions, I see, or to engage in any meaningful debate.

Look, if you are going to make assertions about economic systems, please have an argument. It is very easy to come here and make assertions, but you need to have some answers when those assertions are challenged. OK?

 

[RCIA4]

Your debate style consists of name calling and its confrontational and hurts my feelings! You’ve called me names, you’ve called me a communist maniac…

Geesh man all i am is a happy bubbly personality and here you are being all mean to me…

 

[John21652]

Your debate style consists of name calling and its confrontational and hurts my feelings! You’ve called me names, you’ve called me a communist maniac…

Geesh man all i am is a happy bubbly personality and here you are being all mean to me…

Oh, can you please show me where I called you a “Communist maniac”?
If you can show me where I wrote that, I’ll gladly apologise.

 

[RCIA4]

Sorry just forget this… I’m sorry for the whole thing

 

[Abu]

RCIA4
the Church sanctions organized labor

Certainly, while the Church insists on the right to free association which encompasses trade unions, She does not have any competence in analyzing the economic consequences of the actions of certain unions or their members, but teaches prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance.

Popes have warned explicitly against thinking that they have unique insights into specific matters of economic policy.

“If I were to pronounce on any single matter of a prevailing economic problem, I should be interfering with the freedom of men to work out their own affairs. Certain cases must be solved in the domain of facts, case by case as they occur…[M]en must realise in deeds those things, the principles of which have been placed beyond dispute…[T]hese things one must leave to the solution of time and experience.” [Pope Leo XIII. Quoted in *The Church And The Market, Dr Thomas E. Woods, Lexington Books, 2005, p 4].

Pius XI wrote of “matters of technique for which [the Church] is neither suitably equipped nor endowed by office.” Quadragesimo Anno, 41]….“economics and moral science employs each its own principles in its own sphere.” [QA, 42]. The Pope went on to deny that “the economic and moral orders are so distinct from and alien to each other that the former depends in no way on the latter.” [QA, 42]. Woods states: “As A.M.C. Waterman points out, this concession by Pius XI ‘throws doubt on the authoritative character of that very substantial part of Catholic (or at least papal) social teaching which consists not of theological and ethical pronouncements, but of empirical judgments about the economy.’ ” [Woods, p 5].

“It goes without saying that part of the responsibility of Pastors is to give careful consideration to current events in order to discern the new requirements of evangelization. However, such an analysis is not meant to pass definitive judgments since this does not fall per se within the Magisterium’s specific domain.” [John Paul II, *Centesimus Annus, 3. Italics added].

Further, John Paul II adds: “The Church has no models to present; models that are real and truly effective can only arise within the framework of different historical situations, through the efforts of all those who responsibly confront concrete problems in all their social, economic, political and cultural aspects, as these interact with one other. For such a task the Church offers Her social teaching as an indispensable and ideal orientation….” [CA, 43. Italics in original].

 

[WinterLight]

Let me reiterate a few important points as supplements to Abu’s already excellent defense of market economies. Actually, that’s the first point (which was made earlier, but I’d rather err on the side of redundancy): to use the term “capitalism” is to engage in derogatory speech. It was Marx who popularized (not sure if he actually coined it, although he’s often credited for it) the term “capitalism”. The proper term is “market economy.” Second, greed and envy are peculiar neither to the proponents of the free market or the rich: both socialists and the poor suffer from these vices as well. Third, we should judge any economic system based on its overall advantages and disadvantages. Space doesn’t allow for a thorough analysis (although bless Abu for trying), but history indicates that a minimally regulated market economy has less disadvantages than collectivist schemes like socialism. I do emphasize here (as would Adam Smith) that some regulation is important, but it should be kept minimal. On this note, I ask a question: are not individual persons better equipped to regulate their own lives with greater prudence than a coterie of elites far removed from their day-to-day concerns?

 

[RCIA4]

I’m not a socialist! I’m a distributist! Socialism is false!

 

[Monte_RCMS]

An excerpt from Dr. Walter E. Williams:

It’s popular to condemn greed, but it’s greed that gets wonderful things done. When I say greed, I don’t mean stealing, fraud, misrepresentation or other forms of dishonesty. I mean people trying to get as much as they can for themselves.

We don’t give second thought to the many wonderful things others do for us. Detroit assembly-line workers get up at the crack of dawn to produce the car you enjoy. Farm workers toil in the blazing sun gathering grapes for our wine. Snowplow drivers brave blizzards just so we can have access to our roads.

Do you think these people make these personal sacrifices because they care about us? My bet is they don’t give a hoot. Instead, they along with their bosses do these wonderful things for us because they want more for themselves.

People in the education and political establishments pretend they’re not motivated by such “callous” motives as greed and profits. These people “care” about us, but from which areas of our lives do we derive the greatest pleasures and have the fewest complaints, and from which areas do we have the greatest headaches and complaints? We tend to have high satisfaction with goods and services like computers, cell phones, movies, clothing and supermarkets. These are areas where the motivations are greed and profits. Our greatest dissatisfaction is in areas of caring and no profit motive such as public education, postal services and politics. Give me greed and profits, and you can keep the caring.

Read the full essay and others:

cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2788

and here as well:

econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/

 

[RCIA4]

Monte are you Catholic?

 

[RCIA4]

An excerpt from Dr. Walter E. Williams:

It’s popular to condemn greed, but it’s greed that gets wonderful things done. When I say greed, I don’t mean stealing, fraud, misrepresentation or other forms of dishonesty. I mean people trying to get as much as they can for themselves.

We don’t give second thought to the many wonderful things others do for us. Detroit assembly-line workers get up at the crack of dawn to produce the car you enjoy. Farm workers toil in the blazing sun gathering grapes for our wine. Snowplow drivers brave blizzards just so we can have access to our roads.

Do you think these people make these personal sacrifices because they care about us? My bet is they don’t give a hoot. Instead, they along with their bosses do these wonderful things for us because they want more for themselves.

People in the education and political establishments pretend they’re not motivated by such “callous” motives as greed and profits. These people “care” about us, but from which areas of our lives do we derive the greatest pleasures and have the fewest complaints, and from which areas do we have the greatest headaches and complaints? We tend to have high satisfaction with goods and services like computers, cell phones, movies, clothing and supermarkets. These are areas where the motivations are greed and profits. Our greatest dissatisfaction is in areas of caring and no profit motive such as public education, postal services and politics. Give me greed and profits, and you can keep the caring.

Read the full essay and others:

cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2788

and here as well:

econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/

Wow good thing you weren’t alive in the French Revolution LOL