What is wrong with capitalism?

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Monte RCMS #198
it’s greed that gets wonderful things done
The error here is that greed is evil in life and is not only unnecessary for anyone to succeed in free enterprise, but needs to be replaced by prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance. There is no room for greed as a virtue.

CCC2536:
“The tenth commandment forbids greed and the desire to amass earthly goods without limit. It forbids avarice arising from a passion for riches and their attendant power. It also forbids the desire to commit injustice by harming our neighbor in his temporal goods.”

“It is the capacity to motivate work and the systematic reinvestment of profits that account for the immense productivity of capitalism, just as Weber and Marx pointed out more than a century ago.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 57].
RCIA4 #199
Pure capitalism is condemned
  1. “Pure capitalism” is not in Rerum Novarum
  2. Catholic teaching develops and all now know the emphatic affirmation of the free market by Bl John Paul II and Benedict XVI about which only this poster is so confused as to continue to ridicule the Popes and fantasise about others having the same myopia.
 
Kind sir… I suggest you read up on Catholic social teaching… Pure capitalism is condemned and **EVERYONE **here knows that…

Start with this: vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

About the right to a just living wage, safe conditions etc…

Its called ** RERUM NOVARUM**
**I have just gone through my third reading of RR; IT SAYS NO WHERE THAT CAPITILISM IS TO BE CONDEMNED. :eek: In fact it hails the importance of private ownership:thumbsup::eek: Along with the right to LIFE, and Doing as one pleases without taking rights from others is at athe heart of Capitalism:eek::eek:

May I suggest you read a wonderful Catholic’s writing, Frederic BAstiat’s The Law**
 
In his continued misrepresentation of papal teaching, RCIA4 turns on Rerum Novarum in his haste to discredit the free market.

Fr Anthony G Percy places the Encyclical in perspective.
At that time in history the “misery and wretchedness….of the very poor” (Rerum Novarum, par 2) was due to a number of critical factors noted by Fr Percy, as analysed by Matthew Harbinger.
“Matthew Harbinger equates misery and wretchedness to social dislocation resulting from the Protestant Revolt; personal licence through the so-called Enlightenment and French Revolution; the developing Industrial Revolution moving masses to the cities; the development of mechanical transport and the rise of nationalism and imperialism. [Matthew Harbinger, *Papal Teaching on Private Property: 1891-1981, Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1990, p 4]. [See Fr Percy, *Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, p 92].

Fr Percy states that Leo XIII has acknowledged that “Private property is intimately related to private initiative. In order to preserve the right to private property, one must respect the right to private initiative – one is not possible without the other.” (Ibid., p 98).

This principle was reaffirmed by Bl John Paul II as the ‘fundamental human “right to freedom of economic initiative.” ’ (*Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Human Concerns), Encyclical, 1987, #42).
 
In his continued misrepresentation of papal teaching, RCIA4 turns on Rerum Novarum in his haste to discredit the free market.
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Hi Abu!

You gave a great outline of the context within which* Rerum Novarum* was writen and promulgated.

I now would like to demonstrate to you and others the extreme difficulties which can emanate from an interpretation of that document as has been done by RCIA4.

In Australia in 1907 a High Court Judge delivered what is now referred to as The Harvester Judgement. It was delivered by Justice Henry Bourne Higgins,m who, despite being an astute and leaned Judge, passed into infamy because he, unwitingly at the time, pitted Labour against capital for nearly 80 years.

I linked to a Wikipedia article on the Harvester Judgement, but, of course, the issue goes much deeper than that article explains. The article does point out, however, that Justice Higgins based his descision on Pope Leo’s Rerum Novarum in attepmting to establish what was a “fair and just wage”, or, as it became known in Australia, a “Basic Wage”. He arrived at a figure that supposedly would support a man with an avergae sized family.

It all sounds fair and reasonable. However, what is necessary as being “just and fair” for one set of circumstances is not necessarily “just and fair” for another set of circumstances. For example, how can a pre-dertermined “average wage” be “just and fair” for a family of, say, four, and yet be expected to be “just and fair” for a family of ten? And how can it be “just and fair” that one enterprise must pay what someone determines as being “just and fair” when it may not even be able to afford what someone determines is “just and fair”. What the determination did, was to institutionalise unfairness and great injustice.

The capacity to pay for enterpises is as varied as the number of enterprises and what is “just and fair” for workers is as varied as the number of household circumstances!

The system put into place gave great power to trade unions and they used that power to coerce greater and higher rates of pay from employers, regardless of capacity to pay.
Trade Unionism in Australia ran rampant until it was curbed in the 1980s. Businesses went broke because a centralised wage fixing system forced them to pay a predetermined wage rate, regardless of capacity to pay.

The result became an inflexible labour market and a permanent pool of unemployed, who were either unskiolled, or young and not worth the “just and fair” wage as determined by a centralised wage fixing system.

Poe Leo’s encyclical was an appeal to charity. However, that appeal did not take into account the various economic circumstances that wage earners and producers find themselves in from time to time. It did not take into account the elasticity of supply and demand and gave no flexibility for enterpise bargaining when it was desperately needed by industry. The result was stagnant economic efficiency, poor allocation of resources and a loss of market signals for labor and industry both and great industrial unrest for many years. More here.

The salutory lesson for all is that free markets serve both labor and capital better than any centralised control system. The proof is writ large in Australia’s economic development since the centralised wage fixing system was put aside.
 
Define a “just living wage”, if you can.
Even better than “defining a ‘just living wage’ if you can” … ask the folks who use that expression this question: “fine, you work for me; how much money do I put into your pay envelope?”.
 
I don’t know why you would want to justify it unless your a part of it. If you disagree with a capitalist they will accuse you of being a socialist. I wonder what you would call Jesus because he certainly wasn’t a capitalist.

The truth is most people are centralist taking a little from each - in both forms far left and far right are evil to me.I cannot in good concious condone the far right and even worst the far left so I will put myself in the middle and slightly right .
 
I don’t know why you would want to justify it unless your a part of it. If you disagree with a capitalist they will accuse you of being a socialist. I wonder what you would call Jesus because he certainly wasn’t a capitalist.

The truth is most people are centralist taking a little from each - in both forms far left and far right are evil to me.I cannot in good concious condone the far right and even worst the far left so I will put myself in the middle and slightly right .
Jesus certainly was a capitalist!

He owned tools. Certainly had a shop. [Probably had a pickup truck to deliver furniture and get wood.]

His friends owned FISHING BOATS and nets and other MAJOR big-time capital assets.

They had to work crazy hours … at night … not according to OSHA or Dept of Labor rules.

And in really bad weather.

These guys were entrepreneur capitalists, at the purest sense. It was THEIR assets [and their lives] that were at risk.

And at no time did He use force aka, the government] to further his business interests.

Government was NOT His friend. And not the friend of His friends, either.

And when His friends complained of onerous taxes, the only way He could help them was by performing a miracle! [gold coins appeared in fishes’ mouths.]
 
I’m not a socialist! I’m a distributist! Socialism is false! 😦
Distributism falls apart upon close examination.

Does nothing for people who for whatever reason are unable to keep a cottage industry going.

[Secondary financial markets, working as a temp, and absentee ownership are financial boons, and the financial salvation of / for people who don’t or can’t work a family small business.]

[My great-grandfather owned a farm. Yay. And when there was drought or if the tractor broke (the mule died) or some other terrible economic mess, they were happy to travel to the “big city” and work in the shipyards or the mines or take whatever work they could get.]

[My grandmother worked in rice fields barefoot. By age 19, she had arthritis in her feet. Took a job as a hotel maid. Not very distributist. Was thrilled to come to America and work in a hat factory.]

That it survives at all in Spain is most likely due to the unique nature of Spanish culture, 800 years of Moorish domination, and which is also home to Opus Dei.
 
I don’t know why you would want to justify it unless your a part of it. If you disagree with a capitalist they will accuse you of being a socialist. I wonder what you would call Jesus because he certainly wasn’t a capitalist.

The truth is most people are centralist taking a little from each - in both forms far left and far right are evil to me.I cannot in good concious condone the far right and even worst the far left so I will put myself in the middle and slightly right .
If you disagree with a socialist, he will do his darndest to put you out of business and put your sorry backside in jail.

I have no idea what “far right” or “far left” means.

Maybe you could define those terms.
 
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Hmmmm - wonder what he meant here?
 
It seems that the greed of the bankers and corporations has lead to this current impasse. I am sorry but I see Christ as a socialist more than as a merchant banker. He was a friend of the poor. He criticized the rich and the tax collectors. Please do not try and tell us he was a capitalist.
 
It seems that the greed of the bankers and corporations has lead to this current impasse. I am sorry but I see Christ as a socialist more than as a merchant banker. He was a friend of the poor. He criticized the rich and the tax collectors. Please do not try and tell us he was a capitalist.
Banks in the United States are regulated nine different ways.

If there is any greed involved with the banks, it is on the part of the regulators.
 
Personally I am against capitalism… Please pray for the destruction of greed and inequitable sharing of wealth …
I think you are laboring under a misapprehension here. The Church is not for an equal sharing of wealth; it is against its unjust “distribution”. One more thing. If capitalism is driven by greed, socialism is driven by envy :sad_yes:. We hear nothing from socialists on the sin of envy :nope:.
 
Socialism by any other name is still socialism
In all fairness, distributism is not socialism:
Distributism (also known as distributionism, distributivism) is a third-way economic philosophy formulated by such Catholic thinkers as G. K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc to apply the principles of Catholic social teaching articulated by the Catholic Church, especially in Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Rerum Novarum[1] and more expansively explained by Pope Pius XI’s encyclical Quadragesimo Anno[2]
According to distributism, the ownership of the means of production should be spread as widely as possible among the general populace, rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state socialism) or a few large businesses or wealthy private individuals (laissez-faire capitalism). A summary of distributism is found in Chesterton’s statement: “Too much capitalism does not mean too many capitalists, but too few capitalists.”[3]
Essentially, distributism distinguishes itself by its distribution of property (not to be confused with redistribution of wealth). While socialism allows no individuals to own productive property (it all being under state, community, or workers’ control), distributism itself seeks to ensure that most people will become owners of productive property. As Belloc stated, the distributive state (the state which has implemented distributism) contains “an agglomeration of families of varying wealth, but by far the greater number of owners of the means of production.”[4] This broader distribution does not extend to all property, but only to productive property; that is, that property which produces wealth, namely, the things needed for man to survive. It includes land, tools, etc.[5] …
Privatizing Social Security would have accomplished much of this.
 
I don’t know why you would want to justify it unless your a part of it. If you disagree with a capitalist they will accuse you of being a socialist. I wonder what you would call Jesus because he certainly wasn’t a capitalist.

The truth is most people are centralist taking a little from each - in both forms far left and far right are evil to me.I cannot in good concious condone the far right and even worst the far left so I will put myself in the middle and slightly right .
We will eriect a monument to you as soon as we get the money from the fine middle of the roaders
 
It seems that the greed of the bankers and corporations has lead to this current impasse. I am sorry but I see Christ as a socialist more than as a merchant banker. He was a friend of the poor. He criticized the rich and the tax collectors. Please do not try and tell us he was a capitalist.
I never thought of Jesus as stealing money; but if you say He was a socialist. so be it.
I never thought of Jesus being envious; but if you say He was a socialist, so be it.
I never thought of Jesus as a tyrant; but if you say He was a socialist, so be it.
I never thouhgt of Jesus as taking one’s free will; but if you say He was a socialist, so be it.
I never thought of Jesus as choosing the economic winners and the loosers; but if you say He was a socialist, so be it.
 
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