What is wrong with capitalism?

[damian_clarke]

I think we are denying our own guilt by laying the blame for the breakdown of morality on "socialism’ We in the west have all bought into the sexual revolution. We spend more on pornography than on third world aid we all support Hollywood movies that spread pernicious sexual behavior. We have turned abortion into an industry. The idea may have been Gramscian but the modern western economy has adapted Gramsci’s ideas totally and perfected them.

 

[Abu]

A lesson in facing reality – an inspiring perspective
What entrepreneurs should learn from Blessed John Paul II
By Phil Lawler | December 20, 2011

Andreas Widmer is a former member of the Swiss Guard…

After leaving the Vatican, Widmer frankly admits that he made a series of mistakes. He plunged headlong into the corporate world, made a great deal of money, and very nearly ruined his life. After a series of jobs that left him financially secure but emotionally unsatisfied, he risked his fortune on a new venture, lost, and crashed. After a period of soul-searching he realized that he had forgotten both the Pope’s exhortation and the lessons he had learned by observing that great man in action.

So Widmer started out again—this time, trying to maintain his unity of life, and live out the principle of Catholic social teaching in his business dealings. Today he works with the SEVEN Fund, a charitable organization that promotes entrepreneurial approaches to the fight against poverty.

In this anti-poverty work [The Pope and the CEO], Widmer disdains the organizations that “patronize the poor,” and warns against those who use world poverty as an excuse to establish their own fiefdoms. To work effectively for the poor, he insists, one must understand their needs, unlock their abilities, and help them to generate new wealth by themselves.

Helping people to realize their potential: this, Widmer argues, is the key not just to anti-poverty work, but to any successful enterprise. He uses Blessed John Paul II as an illustration of his point. The late Pontiff touched and inspired countless millions of people because he cared for them: genuinely, deeply, consistently. A great leader succeeds by serving others.

The lessons in leadership furnished by John Paul II are inextricably entwined with the Pope’s spiritual teachings, Widmer points out. A good leader—in the business world or in any other line of work—should exhibit the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude. It takes humility, too, to recognize one’s own limitations and to recognize good advice. And Widmer, following John Paul II, takes the extra step to say that prayer is essential as well, to help keep everything in proper perspective.
catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=878

 

[Reprobus]

I think we are denying our own guilt by laying the blame for the breakdown of morality on "socialism’ We in the west have all bought into the sexual revolution. We spend more on pornography than on third world aid we all support Hollywood movies that spread pernicious sexual behavior. We have turned abortion into an industry. The idea may have been Gramscian but the modern western economy has adapted Gramsci’s ideas totally and perfected them.

If I were baptised, I would blame myself. Grandpa was a swinger. This all goes back long before any of us were even born.

If you have fallen into a trap, it’s kind of nice to know what it is, and who made it, and how it works.

I have tracked the revival of Platonism back to the rediscovery and translation of Proclus’ book The Elements of Theology in AD 1268. Proclus was the last head of Plato’s Academy before it closed, and his book was an attempt to reconcile Platonism with Christianity. This evil is not Christian, but it did come from within the Church and has weakened and harmed her enormously.

These evils are the result of the same Hellenic theology which was predominant in the time of the Roman Empire. The solution is the same now as it was then, and no less dangerous. Refuse to make sacrifices to pagan idols. Sounds easy, right? “I will make no sacrifices for Liberty, or Equality, or Democracy” may not go over so well on Bastille Day or the Fourth of July.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I think we are denying our own guilt by laying the blame for the breakdown of morality on "socialism’ We in the west have all bought into the sexual revolution. We spend more on pornography than on third world aid we all support Hollywood movies that spread pernicious sexual behavior. We have turned abortion into an industry. The idea may have been Gramscian but the modern western economy has adapted Gramsci’s ideas totally and perfected them.

Abortion in the United States is bad, very bad … but it is only a drop in the bucket compared with abortion in many other countries … Russia, Japan and etc.

The vast majority of third world aid ends up in the Swiss bank account of the various and sundry dictators.

A total waste of money.

There is a reason why WAWA is a universal expression of frustration. West Africa Wins Again.

If you are unconvinced that Socialism is the reason for the decline of the West and of Christianity, then read, “None Dare Call It Treason” by John A. Stormer.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill

 

[David_Castlen]

Abortion in the United States is bad, very bad … but it is only a drop in the bucket compared with abortion in many other countries … Russia, Japan and etc.

The vast majority of third world aid ends up in the Swiss bank account of the various and sundry dictators.

A total waste of money.

There is a reason why WAWA is a universal expression of frustration. West Africa Wins Again.

If you are unconvinced that Socialism is the reason for the decline of the West and of Christianity, then read, “None Dare Call It Treason” by John A. Stormer.

Thanks for this book information; and the other data

 

[damian_clarke]

Abortion in the United States is bad, very bad … but it is only a drop in the bucket compared with abortion in many other countries … Russia, Japan and etc.

The vast majority of third world aid ends up in the Swiss bank account of the various and sundry dictators.

A total waste of money.

There is a reason why WAWA is a universal expression of frustration. West Africa Wins Again.

If you are unconvinced that Socialism is the reason for the decline of the West and of Christianity, then read, “None Dare Call It Treason” by John A. Stormer.

I think it goes like this
" I have sinned through my own fault"

 

[David_Castlen]

I think it goes like this
" I have sinned through my own fault"

“…Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and…”. Mt 18:5

One way to “cause one of these little one… to sin” is by putting him in a atmosphere of socialism where envy thrives and stealing survives, lies are thought to provide

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I think it goes like this
" I have sinned through my own fault"

I have sinned through my own fault.

But other people have sinned through their own faults.

And when we listen to false prophets, … so read “None Dare Call It Treason”.

 

[passer_by]

I think you need to refresh us by providing a definition of capitalism. At least as you understand capitalism.

And that is exactly my point. We all have varying definitions including Capitalist themselves. The only thing constant in the definition would be the Free-enterprise. But for some others, hard-core individualism for an example might be part of the package.

This is why I insisted to Abu that to keep repeating that “Capitalism is good” is pointless. It’s almost like arguing without understanding the target audience. The right thing to do, and the only necessary thing to do is to promote the Good elements.

Instead, Abu wants to promote an economic system which may or may not be good depending on the entirety of its implementation.

 

[Abu]

passer_by #248
Abu wants to promote an economic system which may or may not be good depending on the entirety of its implementation.

How quaint!

The promotion of an economic system is done by the popes, and that is the free economy, free enterprise, or “capitalism”, which latter term Bl JPII dislikes, as he affirms free enterprise, and real Catholics understand that and recognise the value.

Real Catholics understand and follow the wise teaching of the Church such as Bl John Paul II, Centesimus Annus, 42, 1991:
‘If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.’

Real Catholics can understand that government finagling disrupts the cause and effect results of the free enterprise principles discovered and developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics hence the depression of the 1930’s and the numerous recessions, which result from various economic theories such as those of Keynes and Friedman.

Real Catholics understand the wise teaching of the Church on human frailty such as by Pope Benedict XVI that “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” (Caritas in Veritate, 2009, #36).

 

[damian_clarke]

OK my brother and sister Catholics I suppose I may have kicked off with the wrong foot here let me give you a practical example of greed as a sin disrupting what is good about individual endevor. I am not sure what the situation is in the USA but in my neck of the woods as a boy Sunday was not a normal shopping day. If you really neeeded some milk you had to go to the corner tea room., However when the Pick and Pay and Old Mutual started building huge shopping malls they pressurised the authorities to allow open Sunday shopping. It was a gradual process. Until twelve initially. Now Sunday is just like any other day. Movies, professional sport, shops etc. So the working guy who works at Pick and Pay now is on shift Saturday and Sunday. When can he/she worship. We still cannot buy booze on Sundays. I am sure it is only a matter of time before some marketing guy will realize this is an opportunity to make a sale and start pressurizing governement to allow it. When the new satellite TV company Top TV started three years ago they were targeting the lower income market. They said they were all in favor of family values.Infact family values were a core component of their whole company. Three years later they want to start a pornography service. They are still committed to family values they assure us. Those values just happen to include access 24 hours a day 7 days a week to hard core porn. I am not sure if it will include gay porn but hey there is a buck to be made.So forgive me for being a bit cynical about some aspects of our economic system. If we can see a quick buck in it why should we worry about morals etc.
God Bless one and all.

 

[Abu]

damian Clarke #250
Obviously you have identified the vices of some individuals in commerce and the lack of sound laws to curb immoral practices – part of the relativism of the age – that’s where the blame lies. The rejection of Christ’s Magisterium in His Church through the Protestant Revolt, and personal licence through the so-called Enlightenment and French Revolution have all contributed.

Now,
‘We’re reaching a tipping point—not of the earth’s climate, but of the financial schemes that permanently divert funds from productive activities into wasteful ones, all in the name of “saving the climate.” The results are evident: higher levels of spending, deficits, or taxes; higher prices for energy and electricity and therefore for all manufactured goods; less productive activity; less employment; and more misery.’
See LifeSite News at: tinyurl.com/82dtygj

There are many ways that mankind can squander resources and misapply the cause and effect principles of economics which is free enterprise, discovered by Catholics based on sound faith and reason .

 

[John21652]

I think we are denying our own guilt by laying the blame for the breakdown of morality on "socialism’ We in the west have all bought into the sexual revolution. We spend more on pornography than on third world aid we all support Hollywood movies that spread pernicious sexual behavior. We have turned abortion into an industry. The idea may have been Gramscian but the modern western economy has adapted Gramsci’s ideas totally and perfected them.

The increaseing “socialism” goes hand in hand with an increased reliance upon a Utilitarian ethic. It must, because socialism wont ‘fit’ with any other moral system.

Utilitarianism gives greater voice to minority groups who scream “rights”. After all, under utilitarianism we are all just little happiness vessels and whatever turns us on and makes us happy little vessels is OK and morally justified.

 

[David_Castlen]

The increaseing “socialism” goes hand in hand with an increased reliance upon a Utilitarian ethic. It must, because socialism wont ‘fit’ with any other moral system.

Utilitarianism gives greater voice to minority groups who scream “rights”. After all, under utilitarianism we are all just little happiness vessels and whatever turns us on and makes us happy little vessels is OK and morally justified.

**Great John:thumbsup:
It is one thing to understand the issue
It is even better to be able to communicate it
And even so more to communicate it clearly
Lastly and most superlatively: the communicate it with a poetic flavor:thumbsup:

You and Abu have done famously within this thread and the thread on the sin of Distributism

Thank you**

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Many of The Ten Commandments deal with respecting private property rights.

Count them.

Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

1. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

1. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

So, basically, if YOU didn’t earn it the hard way, it isn’t yours.

If your parents worked for it, you have no right to take what is theirs.

You cam complain all day about injustice … but if you didn’t earn it by the sweat of your brow … or by other hard physical and/or intellectual work … you have no rights to the property of other people. And faking intellectual work by inventing data doesn’t count.

Everything is based on voluntary association. And voluntary transactions.

 

[David_Castlen]

Many of The Ten Commandments deal with respecting private property rights.

Count them.

Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

1. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

1. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

So, basically, if YOU didn’t earn it the hard way, it isn’t yours.

If your parents worked for it, you have no right to take what is theirs.

You cam complain all day about injustice … but if you didn’t earn it by the sweat of your brow … or by other hard physical and/or intellectual work … you have no rights to the property of other people. And faking intellectual work by inventing data doesn’t count.

Everything is based on voluntary association. And voluntary transactions.

six and nine are also a violation of property as well as liberty and one and two are the greatest of violations of liberty: they “protect” the right of due worship to God Almighty.

 

[David_Castlen]

Many of The Ten Commandments deal with respecting private property rights.

Count them.

Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

1. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

1. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

So, basically, if YOU didn’t earn it the hard way, it isn’t yours.

If your parents worked for it, you have no right to take what is theirs.

You cam complain all day about injustice … but if you didn’t earn it by the sweat of your brow … or by other hard physical and/or intellectual work … you have no rights to the property of other people. And faking intellectual work by inventing data doesn’t count.

Everything is based on voluntary association. And voluntary transactions.

 

[passer_by]

How quaint!

The promotion of an economic system is done by the popes, and that is the free economy, free enterprise, or “capitalism”, which latter term Bl JPII dislikes, as he affirms free enterprise, and real Catholics understand that and recognise the value.

Buddy, I don’t know what your agenda is here.

You are creating a false equivocation here between Free-Enterprise and Capitalism. This is a simple matter that you keep complicating by first making the equivocation and then proceeding to write pages of papal and Councillor quotes that support Free-Enterprise.

Please understand this. While Capitalism necessitates Free-enterprise, that is not necessarily the only characteristic of Capitalism. So you equaling Capitalism with Free-enterprise is false. Free-Enterprise is simply PART of Capitalism. So each implementation of Capitalism, while definitely holding Free-Enterprise as a cornerstone, can promote other values as necessary for that implementation.

Just look at the definition of Capitalism from the Oxford dictionary:-

"An economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

So as you can see from the above, there can be infinitely possible implementations of Capitalism. Some good and some bad.

Therefore, just as it would be dumb for me to make a statement like “Capitalism is BAD because this specific countries implementation necessitates selfish behavior”, it is stupid to say “Capitalism is GOOD because it promotes Free-Enterprise”.

The correct and more accurate statement would be that “Free-Enterprise is GOOD, Capitalism if implemented by respecting other moral precepts is GOOD”.

 

[David_Castlen]

Buddy, I don’t know what your agenda is here.

You are creating a false equivocation here between Free-Enterprise and Capitalism. This is a simple matter that you keep complicating by first making the equivocation and then proceeding to write pages of papal and Councillor quotes that support Free-Enterprise.

Please understand this. While Capitalism necessitates Free-enterprise, that is not necessarily the only characteristic of Capitalism. So you equaling Capitalism with Free-enterprise is false. Free-Enterprise is simply PART of Capitalism. So each implementation of Capitalism, while definitely holding Free-Enterprise as a cornerstone, can promote other values as necessary for that implementation.

Just look at the definition of Capitalism from the Oxford dictionary:-

"An economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

So as you can see from the above, there can be infinitely possible implementations of Capitalism. Some good and some bad.

Therefore, just as it would be dumb for me to make a statement like “Capitalism is BAD because this specific countries implementation necessitates selfish behavior”, it is stupid to say “Capitalism is GOOD because it promotes Free-Enterprise”.

The correct and more accurate statement would be that “Free-Enterprise is GOOD, Capitalism if implemented by respecting other moral precepts is GOOD”.

Why are you so acerbic? Mr. Abu has not misquoted anything and the differences you note are like straining a nat.