What is wrong with capitalism?

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i know there have been a lot of post and i have scanned through most so i apologize if i am repeating anything already said.

I interpret capitalism as being a business based economic structure which enables any individual to work within it to achieve, succeed and impact on their community. It is usually a function of democracy, which itself should build a full social function to support all members of the community poor and rich.

The problem comes when you confuse capitalism to being solely a political term. It’s not, its an economic term.

The danger with viewing it politically is that the other side of the coin - to look after those who can’t, to foster ethical competition and practice is forgotten and you end up with a society which only values those who achieve well by this economic scale.

a society is only as strong as it’s weakest member – and a symptom of rampant capitalism is that weakest member is ignored, under provided for and the consequence of run away capitalism.

Unfortunately you only have to look here in the US to see how the power and greed of capitalism has shaken the roots of the nation as a whole, it no longer cares for that weakest member.

Those who do well financially can be seen on their “soapbox” exclaiming its that person freedom to choose not to be able to afford basic living wages, food everyday of the week or even the right to have healthcare when they need it. The weakest member of society would most probably do anything for a chance. Anything for a decent job, a good wage and the option to have their life as a choice. This is the problem with capitalism – it can override the humanity of a society.
 
As the word “pure” is not in *Rerum Novarum *we have yet another red herring and socialcath101 is as confused as those others who misrepresent Catholic social teaching.
See: tinyurl.com/3yyxv – the Vatican site.

So confusion is worse confounded
 
Abu said:
As the word “pure” is not in *Rerum Novarum *we have yet another red herring and socialcath101 is as confused as those others who misrepresent Catholic social teaching.
See: tinyurl.com/3yyxv – the Vatican site.

So confusion is worse confounded
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I’m not misrepresenting… I was paraphrasing…

The document says things about unions, just wages, the welfare of workers etc… It also says employers dont have the right to free rein workers…

It does affirm private property and some aspects (many) of capitalism… But it also mentions the state to provide for the common good and preferential option for the poor… Read it… It’s all there…
 
“The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government.” Rerum Novarum, p. 37
 
Look I support capitalism… I’m not against most aspects of the free markets… I’m just saying we can’t have wild go free markets like we did in the late 19th and early 20th century…

I’m supporting a mixed economy where government has a secondary regulatory role… Let’s be clear…

The Church supports aspects of capitalism and free markets… But not wild free markets (And I’m paraphrasing)
 
socialcath101 said:
Look I support capitalism… I’m not against most aspects of the free markets… I’m just saying we can’t have wild go free markets like we did in the late 19th and early 20th century…

I’m supporting a mixed economy where government has a secondary regulatory role… Let’s be clear…

The Church supports aspects of capitalism and free markets… But not wild free markets (And I’m paraphrasing)
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I think you are confusing social teaching with economic structure … capitalism is a form of economic structure not a basis for a social state and it is this which the Church discusses and teaches us on.

While you quote parts of the Church writings you have mixed the role of social teaching which discusses state function (ie Government) with the boundaries of economic structure (which is capitalism).

Clearly you must be American as here the confusion of government and capitalism is evident in most things you read and watch …the lines are blurred since capitalists are now running government … this however is not how it is supposed to work – look at the hundreds of other countries who manage to exist with capitalism being the economic structure and the state looking after the social welfare of its people.
 
essie7777 said:
I think you are confusing social teaching with economic structure … capitalism is a form of economic structure not a basis for a social state and it is this which the Church discusses and teaches us on.

While you quote parts of the Church writings you have mixed the role of social teaching which discusses state function (ie Government) with the boundaries of economic structure (which is capitalism).

Clearly you must be American as here the confusion of government and capitalism is evident in most things you read and watch …the lines are blurred since capitalists are now running government … this however is not how it is supposed to work – look at the hundreds of other countries who manage to exist with capitalism being the economic structure and the state looking after the social welfare of its people.
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I was trying to make a case for the welfare state within capitalism from a Catholic social teaching standpoint…
 
socialcath101 said:
I was trying to make a case for the welfare state within capitalism from a Catholic social teaching standpoint…
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I think your aim is great 🙂

However confusing the content only makes it harder for others to understand as it seems very muddled and unclear as you are mixing what you have read, with the misguided interpretation of what state is, you seem to focus on the American notion that capitalism defines the state. Church teachings and most other counties would argue the opposite - that state defines capitalism, this may be why your comments look so confused on this topic.🤷
 
essie7777 said:
I think your aim is great 🙂

However confusing the content only makes it harder for others to understand as it seems very muddled and unclear as you are mixing what you have read, with the misguided interpretation of what state is, you seem to focus on the American notion that capitalism defines the state. Church teachings and most other counties would argue the opposite - that state defines capitalism, this may be why your comments look so confused on this topic.🤷
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Thanks for the clarification 🙂
 
essie7777 #278
Unfortunately you only have to look here in the US to see how the power and greed of capitalism has shaken the roots of the nation as a whole, it no longer cares for that weakest member.
This is the problem with capitalism – it can override the humanity of a society
Click to expand...
The “nation” is riven by a society riven by the relativism of secularism, and a government which cripples subsidiarity and solidarity which are the warp and woof of Catholic social teaching – a government which is requiring contraception and abortion provisions from Catholic services.

The machinations of government have distorted free enterprise with stimuli and deficits and allowing manufacturing to be clobbered by imports from manipulated currency areas. Trying to blame free enterprise for human frailty and societal ills is putting the cart before the horse.

Andreas Widmer is a former member of the Swiss Guard…

After leaving the Vatican, Widmer frankly admits that he made a series of mistakes. He plunged headlong into the corporate world, made a great deal of money, and very nearly ruined his life. After a series of jobs that left him financially secure but emotionally unsatisfied, he risked his fortune on a new venture, lost, and crashed. After a period of soul-searching he realized that he had forgotten both the Pope’s exhortation and the lessons he had learned by observing that great man in action.

So Widmer started out again—this time, trying to maintain his unity of life, and live out the principle of Catholic social teaching in his business dealings. Today he works with the SEVEN Fund, a charitable organization that promotes entrepreneurial approaches to the fight against poverty.

In this anti-poverty work [The Pope and the CEO], Widmer disdains the organizations that “patronize the poor,” and warns against those who use world poverty as an excuse to establish their own fiefdoms. To work effectively for the poor, he insists, one must understand their needs, unlock their abilities, and help them to generate new wealth by themselves.

Helping people to realize their potential: this, Widmer argues, is the key not just to anti-poverty work, but to any successful enterprise. He uses Blessed John Paul II as an illustration of his point. The late Pontiff touched and inspired countless millions of people because he cared for them: genuinely, deeply, consistently. A great leader succeeds by serving others.

The lessons in leadership furnished by John Paul II are inextricably entwined with the Pope’s spiritual teachings, Widmer points out. A good leader—in the business world or in any other line of work—should exhibit the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude. It takes humility, too, to recognize one’s own limitations and to recognize good advice. And Widmer, following John Paul II, takes the extra step to say that prayer is essential as well, to help keep everything in proper perspective.
catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=878
 
essie7777 #285
Clearly you must be American as here the confusion of government and capitalism is evident in most things you read and watch …the lines are blurred since capitalists are now running government … this however is not how it is supposed to work – look at the hundreds of other countries who manage to exist with capitalism being the economic structure and the state looking after the social welfare of its people.
Click to expand...
The Welfare State is condemned by Bl John Paul II (Centesimus Annus) so reality needs to be faced, and the experience of Sweden and the rest of Europe shows the deficiencies highlighted by Bl John Paul II.
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”
 
Abu said:
The “nation” is riven by a society riven by the relativism of secularism, and a government which cripples subsidiarity and solidarity which are the warp and woof of Catholic social teaching – a government which is requiring contraception and abortion provisions from Catholic services.

The machinations of government have distorted free enterprise with stimuli and deficits and allowing manufacturing to be clobbered by imports from manipulated currency areas. Trying to blame free enterprise for human frailty and societal ills is putting the cart before the horse.

Andreas Widmer is a former member of the Swiss Guard…

After leaving the Vatican, Widmer frankly admits that he made a series of mistakes. He plunged headlong into the corporate world, made a great deal of money, and very nearly ruined his life. After a series of jobs that left him financially secure but emotionally unsatisfied, he risked his fortune on a new venture, lost, and crashed. After a period of soul-searching he realized that he had forgotten both the Pope’s exhortation and the lessons he had learned by observing that great man in action.

So Widmer started out again—this time, trying to maintain his unity of life, and live out the principle of Catholic social teaching in his business dealings. Today he works with the SEVEN Fund, a charitable organization that promotes entrepreneurial approaches to the fight against poverty.

In this anti-poverty work [The Pope and the CEO], Widmer disdains the organizations that “patronize the poor,” and warns against those who use world poverty as an excuse to establish their own fiefdoms. To work effectively for the poor, he insists, one must understand their needs, unlock their abilities, and help them to generate new wealth by themselves.

Helping people to realize their potential: this, Widmer argues, is the key not just to anti-poverty work, but to any successful enterprise. He uses Blessed John Paul II as an illustration of his point. The late Pontiff touched and inspired countless millions of people because he cared for them: genuinely, deeply, consistently. A great leader succeeds by serving others.

The lessons in leadership furnished by John Paul II are inextricably entwined with the Pope’s spiritual teachings, Widmer points out. A good leader—in the business world or in any other line of work—should exhibit the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude. It takes humility, too, to recognize one’s own limitations and to recognize good advice. And Widmer, following John Paul II, takes the extra step to say that prayer is essential as well, to help keep everything in proper perspective.
catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=878
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This is an interesting but far from unique approach to business and solving poverty issues. There are thousands of companies who work in this manner and 100s of venture funds (as well as direct government funding) which do the same thing.

It is great though. 😃
 
Abu said:
The Welfare State is condemned by Bl John Paul II (Centesimus Annus) so reality needs to be faced, and the experience of Sweden and the rest of Europe shows the deficiencies highlighted by Bl John Paul II.
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”
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Read Rerum Novarum and you’ll find support for some welfare . I refer you to my quote…

“The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government.” Rerum Novarum, p. 37

And the current state of welfare in the United States is radically different from Sweden. We’ve got workfare… Benefits are limited and are conditioned on job training and search efforts with eventual termination of benefits down the line regardless of employment status at completion of job training…
 
Abu said:
The Welfare State is condemned by Bl John Paul II (Centesimus Annus) so reality needs to be faced, and the experience of Sweden and the rest of Europe shows the deficiencies highlighted by Bl John Paul II.
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”
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I am unsure if you are disagreeing with me, agreeing with or what here. I am familiar with the quotes, and their full works, i am unsure though of the point you are making since the writings don’t speak out against welfare works, only the abuse of it.

Can you clarify? Thank you
 
Abu
You are wrong about your analysis of the economy but that is not the issue. The issue is that you are persistently twisting catholic teaching to try and justify your point of view. The holy Father is opposed to human greed placing corporations and the extreme wealthy over the needs of the little person
As to your view onfdr it isnot a mainstream view. Posting a link to an extreme website is hardly convincing
 
damian_clarke said:
Abu
You are wrong about your analysis of the economy but that is not the issue. The issue is that you are persistently twisting catholic teaching to try and justify your point of view. The holy Father is opposed to human greed placing corporations and the extreme wealthy over the needs of the little person
As to your view onfdr it isnot a mainstream view. Posting a link to an extreme website is hardly convincing
Click to expand...
👍
 
socialcath101 said:
Pure capitalism is condemned by the Church… But so is socialism, liberalism, libertarianism, communism in their pure forms…

I’d say with analysis of Catholic social teaching a mixed economy is best…
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What!??? where, what document!!??:eek::eek:
 
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