What is wrong with the liturgy?

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CilladeRoma

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I just read an interesting read about the liturgy and would love to discuss it
I am a new member and can’t post a direct link yet. It is from the Adoremus Bulletin of July 2017
The author is Christopher Carstens, and the title of the article is “What’s Wrong with the Liturgy”.

Here is a quote from the article.
While the liturgy glorifies God in an objective way—Jesus and his saving work remain its core—the glory of God, as St. Irenaeus famously says, “is man fully alive.” If I want to glorify God, which is the beginning and end of the liturgy, then I too must be sanctified along the way.
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I am interested in thoughts from others. I think the author makes some good points.
 
Ok, so he “taught the children how to worship the mystery of God; how to offer Jesus to the Father in sacrifice, how to offer themselves and their sacrifices in union with Jesus to the Father.”

You know, I dont think we, as Catholics, even like the “mystery” of God. We have answers for everything and anything beyond those prescribed answers is suspect of heresy. An viewing the Mass as an offering of ourselves in union with Jesus has not been a favored view among most, I think. Rather, we emphasize that it is a sacrifice done for us. That can make us passive spectators.
 
Shakuhachi said:
Ok, so he “taught the children how to worship the mystery of God; how to offer Jesus to the Father in sacrifice, how to offer themselves and their sacrifices in union with Jesus to the Father.”

You know, I dont think we, as Catholics, even like the “mystery” of God. We have answers for everything and anything beyond those prescribed answers is suspect of heresy. An viewing the Mass as an offering of ourselves in union with Jesus has not been a favored view among most, I think. Rather, we emphasize that it is a sacrifice done for us. That can make us passive spectators.
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Yes, this is something we have forgotten. The author was here speaking about the angel who initially appeared to the children at Fatima. The angel “taught the children how to worship the mystery of God; how to offer Jesus to the Father in sacrifice, how to offer themselves and their sacrifices in union with Jesus to the Father.”

But this liturgical concept did not arise with Fatima; it has been around for a long time. What use are our small sacrifices? What can we do with them? In the liturgy of the Mass we give them value by joining them to the one eternal sacrifice offered by Jesus to the Father. In this way our sacrifices have great value.
 
This is quite a quote from St. John Paul II:

“The liturgy! Everybody speaks about it, writes about it, and discusses the subject. It has been commented on, it has been praised, and it has been criticized.” The music is often poorly chosen and sung. Art and architecture are frequently mundane at the expense of the heavenly. Preaching and presiding can lack dignity. Participation is regularly associated with liturgical ministry. Liturgical language is deemed inaccessible by many. Opinions abound about “what’s wrong.”

Even he sounds as if he was frustrated about the topic…

I think “what’s wrong with the liturgy” in terms of “what’s wrong with me” has to begin with how well each person understands in concept, what a sacrificial liturgy is within the context of the Catholic Church. While we obviously cannot understand God’s great mysteries, we should know what the Mass is, and why it is celebrated. I think even taking that one step in many parishes would lead to huge improvements.
 
Shakuhachi said:
We have answers for everything and anything beyond those prescribed answers is suspect of heresy.
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That’s rather unique to the Western Church. We can syllogism our way through anything. We are very scholastic. Our Eastern brethren (both Catholic and Orthodox) are not. There is far more mystery in the East. I sometimes wonder, are we overdoing it in the West? I often times wonder if the Easterners are under-doing it too…
 
As a Byzantine (which I know this thread is about) I would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Liturgy.
 
I don’t seem to have the troubles in my diocese that you relate as far as liturgy and the apathy of the laity and leadership.

I do see some apathy if you want to call it that. I think it is more of a reaction to the "pray, pay, obey, catechesis that was very popular in the late 50’s-early 60’s in my area. I think far too many people attend Mass out of a sense of “obligation” rather than looking for the joy and grace it can bring.

My parish has done some good things- we have a “teaching Mass” once a year with our Faith formation program. We showed the great series “Altaration” with a discussion that followed and practical tips on how to engage in the liturgy.

And those who wanted to get something out of it did. And there is the problem. Many people, in my experience, are happy with the “pay, pray, obey” mode, as they don’t have to “do” anything. They do the minimum of what is expected and go on to live their lives, not really thinking that their faith should be part of that everyday life.

This is why this artilce intrigued me- to say that there is something wrong with “liturgy” is really just a blame tactic. Whether it’s the irreverent OF with banjos and tambourines, or the sped-through and mumbled 20-minute EF low Mass that “punched thier ticket” for the week, liturgy is a work of the people- so it is what we make it.
If I don’t want to put the effort into a better understanding, that is no one or nothing else’s fault but mine.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
That would make me terribly uncomfortable, as if I were trying to put my puny self on the same level as God’s great sacrifice for us.
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Consider that St. Paul said, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”

I understand this factually, but not internally. I am not a very good mystic.
 
Just between you and me, I admire St Paul’s commitment, but he said a lot of weird things.

But that could be read as just offering one’s own sufferings daily, as many saints have done and advocated doing. It’s not really a joining with Jesus in the context of the Mass. The Mass to me is the Jesus Hour, He is dying for us and the focus is on Him, not on me and what sacrifices I might be trying to offer.
 
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CilladeRoma said:
Many people, in my experience, are happy with the “pay, pray, obey” mode, as they don’t have to “do” anything. They do the minimum of what is expected and go on to live their lives, not really thinking that their faith should be part of that everyday life.
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I agree with that, but I think it’s at least partially for a different reason.

Many people in my parish (particularly the older ones) remind me of highly unionized workers who have been treated poorly for years. They’re good paying jobs, they have to work – they’re even good at their jobs in many respects, but they’re not about to do any more than the minimum. Not because of any anger at God, not because they do not believe, but because they simply don’t want to be exposed to more of the nastiness that dominates so many parishes right under the surface.

Some pity these people, and some judge them – yet they are far stronger and more fortunate than those who no longer attend Mass – and there are a lot of such people.
 
Duesenberg said:
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CilladeRoma:
Many people, in my experience, are happy with the “pay, pray, obey” mode, as they don’t have to “do” anything. They do the minimum of what is expected and go on to live their lives, not really thinking that their faith should be part of that everyday life.
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I agree with that, but I think it’s at least partially for a different reason.

Many people in my parish (particularly the older ones) remind me of highly unionized workers who have been treated poorly for years. They’re good paying jobs, they have to work – they’re even good at their jobs in many respects, but they’re not about to do any more than the minimum. Not because of any anger at God, not because they do not believe, but because they simply don’t want to be exposed to more of the nastiness that dominates so many parishes right under the surface.

Some pity these people, and some judge them – yet they are far stronger and more fortunate than those who no longer attend Mass – and there are a lot of such people.
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This is worded very strongly, but I think it is sadly true, regarding the politics that sometimes exist in a parish.

And yes, they are stronger and more fortunate because of their mass attendance and faithfulness!

We need to pray and fast for the conversion of our non-practicing brothers and sisters.
 
Or could it be that they are tired of being judged by people who feel it is their job to point out what other are doing wrong.
You keep talking about nastiness and politics at your parish, yet you seem to be engaging in the very same thing. If someone/something does not meet your standards, it is wrong. Period.
Maybe that’s not what you mean but it is certainly how you are coming off in some of the threads you have started.
 
CilladeRoma said:
Or could it be that they are tired of being judged by people who feel it is their job to point out what other are doing wrong.
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How would they even know? Sounds like guilt more than anything.
CilladeRoma said:
You keep talking about nastiness and politics at your parish, yet you seem to be engaging in the very same thing…
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Not just at my parish – at MANY (most?) Catholic (and otherwise) parishes, shuls, etc.
 
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