K
Kaninchen
Guest
Yes, we’re not civilized like the US.
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A
Al_Masetti
Guest
Reviewing the actual data and the way the data are collected and reported is essential to accurate policy analysis.
It’s fun to reduce discussion to the size of a bumper sticker, but it’s not helpful.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Yes, a collection of bumper stickers is much more helpful.
Perhaps.
But I am not going to do your homework for you.
Your claim is European countries.
Britain is one.
What of Italy? France? Austria? etc?
You claim plural, you only back singular.
Seems even stats you quote are questionable now.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=247&issue=007
It looks like find the data and information to back up my comment will be easier than I thought.
Here’s another article with some relevant data.
nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
The thing to do is to find and post that study by Kates & Mauser that goes into detail about a number of countries.
It looks like find the data and information to back up my comment will be easier than I thought.
Here’s another article with some relevant data.
nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
The thing to do is to find and post that study by Kates & Mauser that goes into detail about a number of countries.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
The Kates & Mauser report is on a PDF file … I will see if I can get the link to appear here.
Here’s the Web site of one of the authors:
garymauser.net/papers.html
Can’t get the link … yet. However, the data tables are on pages 687 to 689.
EXCERPT:
But now, in an authoritative analysis of dozens of existing studies on the subject, Don Kates, a Yale-educated attorney who served as a professor at Stanford Law School, and Gary Mauser, a Canadian university professor and author, have shattered the anti-gunners’ elaborate façade into a thousand fragments of falsehood.
Their paper is entitled, “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence,” and it was published this spring in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy–the nation’s most widely distributed law review, with 10,000 copies sent to federal judges and attorneys–where it’s likely to have a big impact on the national debate.
But you don’t have to sit on the federal bench to get your own copy. The paper is free. It’s available here for you to download. And it’s a “must read” for anyone who wants to defend firearm ownership with the most up-to-date and comprehensive international information available.
In their analysis, Kates and Mauser compared different countries, different population groups and different types of interpersonal violence, homicide and suicide throughout much of recorded history, and found that the old anti-gun axioms that you so often hear are false:
Here’s the Web site of one of the authors:
garymauser.net/papers.html
Can’t get the link … yet. However, the data tables are on pages 687 to 689.
EXCERPT:
But now, in an authoritative analysis of dozens of existing studies on the subject, Don Kates, a Yale-educated attorney who served as a professor at Stanford Law School, and Gary Mauser, a Canadian university professor and author, have shattered the anti-gunners’ elaborate façade into a thousand fragments of falsehood.
Their paper is entitled, “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence,” and it was published this spring in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy–the nation’s most widely distributed law review, with 10,000 copies sent to federal judges and attorneys–where it’s likely to have a big impact on the national debate.
But you don’t have to sit on the federal bench to get your own copy. The paper is free. It’s available here for you to download. And it’s a “must read” for anyone who wants to defend firearm ownership with the most up-to-date and comprehensive international information available.
In their analysis, Kates and Mauser compared different countries, different population groups and different types of interpersonal violence, homicide and suicide throughout much of recorded history, and found that the old anti-gun axioms that you so often hear are false:
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
Here’s another excerpt from the report summary:
The Non-Connection Between Guns and Death
You’ve probably heard Sarah Brady, the former head of Handgun Control, Inc., and now of the Brady Campaign, say, “If guns made people safer, America would be the safest nation on earth.”
Since the early 1980s the u.s. gun-ban lobby has sponsored advertisements suggesting that firearms are uniquely available in the United States, and that as a result, the u.s. has a gun-homicide rate higher than the rest of the industrialized world.
As Kates and Mauser deftly point out, both assertions are false.
First of all, firearms are abundantly available and widely owned throughout much of Europe, but that doesn’t necessarily lead to high homicide or suicide rates.
To research that question, Kates and Mauser compiled statistics for the rates of murder and gun ownership for nations stretching from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic to the Pacific.
*… almost no Russian civilians owned firearms–(but) Russia had, and continues to have, by far the highest murder rate in the developed world.
The problem with many of the existing published studies, Kates explained, was that the raw numbers used in the existing studies were not published. So he and Mauser set out to get the raw numbers and analyze them personally.
“We were able to put together figures for nine European nations that had more than 15,000 firearms owned per 100,000 households, and we also had nine European nations that had less than 5,000 firearms owned per 100,000 households,” Kates said.
“What we found was that the first group, with triple the rate of gun ownership, had one-third the homicide rate of the second group.”
On the other hand, in Russia–where firearms had been under police-state control for decades–Kates and Mauser found an exceedingly violent society.
Although the Soviet communist regime tried to hide the problem from the rest of the world, the collapse of the Soviet Union exposed the truth: Despite those iron-fisted government controls on firearm ownership–almost no Russian civilians owned firearms–Russia had, and continues to have, by far the highest murder rate in the developed world.
The Non-Connection Between Guns and Death
You’ve probably heard Sarah Brady, the former head of Handgun Control, Inc., and now of the Brady Campaign, say, “If guns made people safer, America would be the safest nation on earth.”
Since the early 1980s the u.s. gun-ban lobby has sponsored advertisements suggesting that firearms are uniquely available in the United States, and that as a result, the u.s. has a gun-homicide rate higher than the rest of the industrialized world.
As Kates and Mauser deftly point out, both assertions are false.
First of all, firearms are abundantly available and widely owned throughout much of Europe, but that doesn’t necessarily lead to high homicide or suicide rates.
To research that question, Kates and Mauser compiled statistics for the rates of murder and gun ownership for nations stretching from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic to the Pacific.
*… almost no Russian civilians owned firearms–(but) Russia had, and continues to have, by far the highest murder rate in the developed world.
The problem with many of the existing published studies, Kates explained, was that the raw numbers used in the existing studies were not published. So he and Mauser set out to get the raw numbers and analyze them personally.
“We were able to put together figures for nine European nations that had more than 15,000 firearms owned per 100,000 households, and we also had nine European nations that had less than 5,000 firearms owned per 100,000 households,” Kates said.
“What we found was that the first group, with triple the rate of gun ownership, had one-third the homicide rate of the second group.”
On the other hand, in Russia–where firearms had been under police-state control for decades–Kates and Mauser found an exceedingly violent society.
Although the Soviet communist regime tried to hide the problem from the rest of the world, the collapse of the Soviet Union exposed the truth: Despite those iron-fisted government controls on firearm ownership–almost no Russian civilians owned firearms–Russia had, and continues to have, by far the highest murder rate in the developed world.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Mauser is a wonderful name for somebody researching firearms.
Anyway:
Anyway:
So it seems that they’re saying that Americans are just plain more homicidal than Europeans. Perhaps we just prefer to do it on a mega-scale.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
Got timed out.
Go here:
garymauser.net/papers.html
Scroll down and click on the link to the PDF:
The world abounds in instruments with which people can kill each other. Is the widespread availability of one of these instruments, firearms, a crucial determinant of the incidence of murder? Or do patterns of murder and/or violent crime reflect basic socio-economic and/or cultural factors to which the mere availability of one particular form of weaponry is irrelevant?
This article examines a broad range of international data that bear on two distinct but interrelated questions: first, whether widespread firearm access is an important contributing factor in murder and/or suicide, and second, whether the introduction of laws that restrict general access to firearms has been successful in reducing violent crime, homicide or suicide. Our conclusion from the available data is that suicide, murder and violent crime rates are determined by basic social, economic and/or cultural factors with the availability of any particular one of the world’s myriad deadly instrument being irrelevant.
This paper is the penultimate version as a few minor editorial changes have been made in the final publication.
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence.
Harvard Law Review
For more bepress legal papers, visit bepress Legal Repository
Go here:
garymauser.net/papers.html
Scroll down and click on the link to the PDF:
The world abounds in instruments with which people can kill each other. Is the widespread availability of one of these instruments, firearms, a crucial determinant of the incidence of murder? Or do patterns of murder and/or violent crime reflect basic socio-economic and/or cultural factors to which the mere availability of one particular form of weaponry is irrelevant?
This article examines a broad range of international data that bear on two distinct but interrelated questions: first, whether widespread firearm access is an important contributing factor in murder and/or suicide, and second, whether the introduction of laws that restrict general access to firearms has been successful in reducing violent crime, homicide or suicide. Our conclusion from the available data is that suicide, murder and violent crime rates are determined by basic social, economic and/or cultural factors with the availability of any particular one of the world’s myriad deadly instrument being irrelevant.
This paper is the penultimate version as a few minor editorial changes have been made in the final publication.
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence.
Harvard Law Review
For more bepress legal papers, visit bepress Legal Repository
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
I guess you didn’t actually look at the tables in the report.
Look at the data before posting any more.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Where’s the data on homicide rates US v’s Europe?
G
Godi
Guest
Can you say Fascism? Didn’t work too well for Germany, Italy & Russia.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
When was Russia fascist?
W
Wolseley
Guest
You have something against mice?
G
Godi
Guest
Stalin. Your saying he was not a Fascist?
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
When was it not?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
No, Stalin was not a fascist.
Of course, having been somebody who was as an active anti-communist in a world where there were still real communists, I probably know a lot less about it than your average ultra-rightest American.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
pp 687-689.
[Those are the page numbers of the journal; the report is actually only around 50 pages.]
[By the way, I tried to post the tables, but when I scanned them, all of the column tab stops went away and it turned into a mess. If I recall correctly, they were Tables 4 and 5. Maybe you can figure out a way to post the tables.]
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’m sorry but I’m a bit lost as to where all this is.
Why don’t you just give a few examples of higher homicide rates in European countries than the US?
Remember, please, that for most Europeans (like me), Russia is in Europe like Mexico is in North America (same would go for places like Serbia), geographically it may be so but ‘culturally’ “give us a break”.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I should also add that I don’t actually care about the question of gun ownership in the US - whole business seems rather pointless when talking about a country with a couple of hundred million guns (or whatever). I didn’t care when we lived there and don’t now (I don’t think you’ve ever seen me make a judgment on American politics - didn’t when we lived there, either).
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