What is wrong with the nanny state?

[Al_Masetti]

Did the People’s Republic of China (the “Chicoms”) smuggle in tons … containers full … of AK-47’s a few years ago? But they got caught. Not much came of it. We didn’t hear much about that, did we?

 

[vern_humphrey]

What is this compulsion Europeans have to come to American forums and tell us how to run our country?

 

[Scottgun]

What is this compulsion Europeans have to come to American forums and tell us how to run our country?

Let me defend Europeans by appealing to the European silent majority. That is, genuine Euro-weenies are just a very vocal minority. Like college campuses here when you think it is a hotbed of radicals when it is in reality a handful of the privileged disgruntled making noise and getting press because it reads better than a story titled, “15,000 students laze about on on the quad, wait 'till the last minute to finish assignments, and drink beer.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Let me defend Europeans by appealing to the European silent majority. That is, genuine Euro-weenies are just a very vocal minority. Like college campuses here when you think it is a hotbed of radicals when it is in reality a handful of the privileged disgruntled making noise and getting press because it reads better than a story titled, “15,000 students laze about on on the quad, wait 'till the last minute to finish assignments, and drink beer.”

That may be. I was once working a project at the Combat Maneuver Training Center in Germany, staying at a local pension. Some Dutch troops were staying there, too. And they were fascinated with Americans – and disgusted with their own country.

When I lived in Singapore, the people there by and large were admirers of the United States. I recall a letter critical of America and Americans being published in the Straits Times – and being answered by half a dozen locals, who pointed out the good things about this country.

 

[vz71]

Our cynic here keeps saying that laws to ban guns will stop people from having guns, and by extension stop guns from getting in the hands of criminals.

However, I have yet to hear the cynic explain why drugs that are banned throughout this country are so prevelant.

If drugs keep getting into the hands of criminals in spite of the laws, what in the world would make anyone think similar laws banning guns will have any effect?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Our cynic here keeps saying that laws to ban guns will stop people from having guns, and by extension stop guns from getting in the hands of criminals.

However, I have yet to hear the cynic explain why drugs that are banned throughout this country are so prevelant.

If drugs keep getting into the hands of criminals in spite of the laws, what in the world would make anyone think similar laws banning guns will have any effect?

Well, you see, gun bans work because people who would murder, steal and rape would never break the law and carry a gun.

 

[Al_Masetti]

What is this compulsion Europeans have to come to American forums and tell us how to run our country?

They’re trying to occupy their time whilst awaiting the arrival of their green card.

 

[vern_humphrey]

They’re trying to occupy their time whilst awaiting the arrival of their green card.

 

[BamaRider]

You reduce the number of semi-automatic weapons in circulation by either banning the (legal) sale of them or restricting it. Of course in the U.S there are already so many guns about, being sold privately etc., it might take quite a while to have the intended effect of the making it more *difficult *for a criminal to get hold of one. If criminals are lazy, then how much work is the guy willing to do, or how much is he willing to pay?

There are also less drastic forms of gun control than banning, which you no doubt won’t like either :

1. Require that anybody who wants to own a gun get a license. Obtaining one will involve full background check, referees to vouch for psychological stability etc.

2.Require that every gun purchased is registered. That means that the owner will be responsible for where it ends up. Sell to an unlicensed individual and if the police find it, you’re in big trouble. Yeah the crims will file off the serial number, so you have to check it in at a local station every 2 years, or report it stolen/lost as is the case.

Ideas like these will never get off the ground, because you guys have such a paranoid fear of government.

I thought we already had a bunch of gun laws on the books? Is it not illegal for a bad guy to own a gun? If you pass a dopey law tomorrow, what is gonna change?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I thought we already had a bunch of gun laws on the books? Is it not illegal for a bad guy to own a gun? If you pass a dopey law tomorrow, what is gonna change?

In the United States it is illegal for:

1. A convicted felon to own or be in possession of a firearm.
2. For a person – felon or not – to be in simultaneous possession of drugs and firearms.
3. For a person – felon or not – to be in possession a firearm during the commission of a crime.
4. For a person to lie on the ATFE form about their status when purchasing a firearm.

And we know murderers, robbers and rapists would never lie or break the law, right?

 

[mapleoak]

I thought we already had a bunch of gun laws on the books? Is it not illegal for a bad guy to own a gun? If you pass a dopey law tomorrow, what is gonna change?

If we pass a dopey law tomorrow, all the criminals are going to be fighting to be the first in line at the collection site to drop off their contraband.

 

[Axion]

It’s not just career criminals who kill people with guns. Although under US gun laws every criminal can get a gun as easily as a pound of butter. And with everyone armed to the teeth and able to buy guns over the counter, disputes that would elsewhere end in a fist fihght or harsh words, end in someone being gunned down. Accidental killings, anger slaying and gun killing sprees are all the fruits of open-access to firearms.

Enforcement of sound anti-gun laws is possible, as in Europe where gun crime is a tiny fraction of the US total. Of course, like dealing with other crime, the WILL has to be there

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s not just career criminals who kill people with guns. Although under US gun laws every criminal can get a gun as easily as a pound of butter.

That’s not true. Getting a gun requires meeting the legal standards, including clearance by the FBI.

Now, criminals can get guns easily – which proves the point; All the obstacles making it difficult for honest people to get guns do not affect criminals.

And with everyone armed to the teeth and able to buy guns over the counter, disputes that would elsewhere end in a fist fihght or harsh words, end in someone being gunned down. Accidental killings, anger slaying and gun killing sprees are all the fruits of open-access to firearms.

Which is bolony. That argument is raised in every state where “shall issue” laws are proposed, and in every state the prediction proves false.

The time has come to stop making these intellectually dishonest claims and report the truth – when honest citizens are given licenses to carry guns, violent crime goes down.

Enforcement of sound anti-gun laws is possible, as in Europe where gun crime is a tiny fraction of the US total. Of course, like dealing with other crime, the WILL has to be there

Experience in the United States has shown that allowing decent citizens to go armed has brought violent crime down.

 

[vz71]

My father once explained this to me as such…
Some people have some kind of disorder that makes them believe that someone that breaks rules will follow a rule if it is worded strongly enough.

The concept that someone that breaks laws should be punished is completely foreign and it really is the fault of the lawmaker for not wording the law in such a way that the criminal would feel compelled to follow it.

Strange world some people live in…

 

[cynic]

And the Columbian drug dealers who manage to fly in multiple tons of cocaine every year simply branch out into weapons smuggling, and we have multiple tons of weapons flooding in. How does banning automatic weapons stop this? It doesn’t.

Not all criminals are well-connected Columbian drug dealers. Burglars, armed robbers, drug dealers further down the foodchain, homeboys, gangbangers wanting to act tough… the list goes on.

Difficult but far from impossible.

Making it more difficult isn’t worthwhile?

Both are dandy ideas, but what you still fail to understand is that the only people who are going to follow these regulations are the law-abiding citizens who jump through all the hoops. The criminals aren’t going to bother with all this nonsense—they’ll just buy a caseload of AK-47’s from José the Friendly Cocaine Smuggler, and go on their merry way. You can restrict the sale of automatic weapons all you want, and ***it will not stop the flow for anyone except the law-abiding citizens. ***

Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?

Those ideas are supposed to make it harder for that to happen (not stop it from happening). At the moment any crim can buy a gun second hand easily, and the people who are responsible for selling to them won’t get convicted of anything.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not all criminals are well-connected Columbian drug dealers. Burglars, armed robbers, drug dealers further down the foodchain, homeboys, gangbangers wanting to act tough… the list goes on.

Which is irrelevant – criminals, even stupid ones who live in the backwoods of Arkansas, can get all the drugs they want. And that means they can get all the guns they want.

Making it more difficult isn’t worthwhile?

No, because you only make it more difficult for honest people – your laws don’t affect criminals. If anything, victim disarmament laws only make things easier for criminals.

Those ideas are supposed to make it harder for that to happen (not stop it from happening). At the moment any crim can buy a gun second hand easily, and the people who are responsible for selling to them won’t get convicted of anything.

Which is a bureaucrat’s approach – if it looks good on paper, it doesn’t have to work in reality.

In reality, allowing citizens to bear arms cuts violent crime.

 

[Al_Masetti]

… a bureaucrat’s approach – if it looks good on paper, it doesn’t have to work in reality.

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That is the best statement of the problem that I have ever seen.

And … it even fits on a (large) bumper sticker!!

 

[cynic]

Which is irrelevant – criminals, even stupid ones who live in the backwoods of Arkansas, can get all the drugs they want. And that means they can get all the guns they want.
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How many guns used in crime do you think are manufactured and bought in the U.S?

No, because you only make it more difficult for honest people – your laws don’t affect criminals. If anything, victim disarmament laws only make things easier for criminals.
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It makes it more difficult for otherwise honest people to offload their guns second hand, at a gun fair, wherever, to who knows.

Which is a bureaucrat’s approach – if it looks good on paper, it doesn’t have to work in reality.

In reality, allowing citizens to bear arms cuts violent crime.

Even a minimum of regulation is unworkable. However, assuming that everyone will want to arm up next time they go shopping, to the movies, take a Sunday drive, is entirely in touch with reality, right?

 

[vern_humphrey]

How many guns used in crime do you think are manufactured and bought in the U.S?

We have guns manufactured everywhere – including automatic weapons made in China and smuggled in.

It makes it more difficult for otherwise honest people to offload their guns second hand, at a gun fair, wherever, to who knows.

No, it makes it more difficult for honest people to arm themselves – it affects the criminals not at all, other than giving them a warm, fuzzy feeling that their prospective victims are less likely to be armed.

Even a minimum of regulation is unworkable. However, assuming that everyone will want to arm up next time they go shopping, to the movies, take a Sunday drive, is entirely in touch with reality, right?

How would you know what reality is in the US? Do you think your imagination is somehow more accurate than our combined lifetimes of experience in this country?

Your arguments give me a sense of deja moo (the feeling I’ve heard this bull before.)

We hear it every time another state debates passage of a “shall issue” law – imaginative nonsense completely at odds with reality. And after the law passes, and violent crime drops, the people who made such specious arguments haven’t even got the good grace to apologize.

 

[cynic]

We have guns manufactured everywhere – including automatic weapons made in China and smuggled in.
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Manufactured in China, bought legally in the U.S

No, it makes it more difficult for honest people to arm themselves
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Not too difficult though. Oh no, having to expend a bit of effort to acquire a deadly weapon…

– it affects the criminals not at all, other than giving them a warm, fuzzy feeling that their prospective victims are less likely to be armed.
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They’re not likely to be armed for other reasons. Survey the number of people on the street to see if they are carrying guns, how do you think, what %?

How would you know what reality is in the US? Do you think your imagination is somehow more accurate than our combined lifetimes of experience in this country?
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Yeah but I think you’re biased to one point of view, since it fits in nicely with your other opinions ie. extreme individualistic outlook, dislike of the state etc.

Your arguments give me a sense of deja moo (the feeling I’ve heard this bull before.)

We hear it every time another state debates passage of a “shall issue” law – imaginative nonsense completely at odds with reality. And after the law passes, and violent crime drops, the people who made such specious arguments haven’t even got the good grace to apologize.

If you say it’s bull, it must be bull.