What is wrong with the nanny state?

[vz71]

When you the training requirement in task-condition-standard, you also gain something else – you can see if the students even need training – if they can do the task to standard, under the specified conditions, they have no need of being trained on that task.

Sure they do.
If they gain nothing else, they would then be a known minimum level of competency.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The complexities you have just introduced me to in gun ownership prove to me that training before one is permitted to use the firearm on a plane to be a necessity.

Again, state your proposed training in task-condition-standard format.

Is it really your position that pilots should have firearms without any idea how to safely use them?

Most men already know how to use firearms – it’s part of growing up. In additioin, the largest source of airline pilots is the military – ex-military pilots know all about firearms.

 

[Brendan]

In additioin, the largest source of airline pilots is the military – ex-military pilots know all about firearms.

Or current military, in the form of Air Force Reserves.

The large majority of airline pilots are current or former Air Force officers who have already recieved training in small arms, from assault rifles to handguns.

There are very few other options for getting the training on large, multiengine aircraft, and even if you did, there are even fewer options for getting the requisite log time in the cockpit.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Or current military, in the form of Air Force Reserves.

The large majority of airline pilots are current or former Air Force officers who have already recieved training in small arms, from assault rifles to handguns.

There are very few other options for getting the training on large, multiengine aircraft, and even if you did, there are even fewer options for getting the requisite log time in the cockpit.

Many pilots are still in the reserves, and still fly missions in the reserves. And when they fly military aircraft, they carry firearms.

So why should anyone get their underwear in a knot about them carrying the same (or similar) weapons when flying civil airliners?

 

[cynic]

You keep laying the claim that it would be ‘harder’

I submit that this is a completely false premise. Eliminating a source does not mean there are not other available sources.

Given the illegal action the people involved seem willing to take, I highly doubt written law will stand in their way from any number of sources.

And you still have not answered for gun laws that were already in effect not stopping the tragedy from occurring.
Perhaps there were not enough laws?
Maybe they didn’t use the right words in the laws…
Maybe if they used a bolder font in writing the laws these criminals would feel compelled to comply with the law.

Criminals do not follow the law.
Expecting the criminal element to follow a law is…obtuse.

Presumably their friends did not buy those guns intending to use them to commit crimes (their crime is that they thought nothing about passing them on the the perpetrators). Hence these are not criminals committed to finding guns by any means.

 

[mapleoak]

What I find especially amusing about pro-choice liberals who involve themselves in gun law debates are that these same people who claim that outlawing abortion will not stop abortions are the same people who claim that outlawing gun ownership will stop criminals from getting firearms.

 

[Al_Masetti]

What I find especially amusing about pro-choice liberals who involve themselves in gun law debates are that these same people who claim that outlawing abortion will not stop abortions are the same people who claim that outlawing gun ownership will stop criminals from getting firearms.

Hey, if it looks good on paper, that’s all that counts!

:banghead:

 

[nan]

On a lighter note - the Navy trains terrific pilots also, not just the Air Force. They learn to land on a tiny moving dot in the ocean, at night, in a hurricane, sometimes while their plane is on fire!

 

[vz71]

Most men already know how to use firearms – it’s part of growing up. In additioin, the largest source of airline pilots is the military – ex-military pilots know all about firearms.

Correction…most men in your experience already know how to use firearms.
I can assure you that your experiences are not universal.

I would prefer to have a known minimum level of competency carrying a pistol.
How am I to know if they are within your experience or not?
Without training for their weapon of choice, as well as shooting this weapon accurately, I simply do not know…and could not support trusting them with a gun.

 

[rtconstant]

Correction…most men in your experience already know how to use firearms.
I can assure you that your experiences are not universal.

I would prefer to have a known minimum level of competency carrying a pistol.
How am I to know if they are within your experience or not?
Without training for their weapon of choice, as well as shooting this weapon accurately, I simply do not know…and could not support trusting them with a gun.

Correct. Even here in the South knowledge of guns is not universal. The numbers of those who have some level of experience with guns drops drastically in urban areas. Unless you count those in gangs they have experience in guns.

I’m a gun owner and enthusiast but I’ve never understood the logic of some that seem to act like they want people carrying and weilding weapons without any knowledge or training. Weapons should be treated with a certain level of respect.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Correction…most men in your experience already know how to use firearms.
I can assure you that your experiences are not universal.

I would prefer to have a known minimum level of competency carrying a pistol.
How am I to know if they are within your experience or not?
Without training for their weapon of choice, as well as shooting this weapon accurately, I simply do not know…and could not support trusting them with a gun.

Then tell us what training they need!!

State your proposed program in the normal task-condition-standard format.

 

[vz71]

Then tell us what training they need!!

State your proposed program in the normal task-condition-standard format.

Now that you actually asked…

If we are to supply a pilot with weaponry, they need to have basic knowledge of their weapon. They need to know its features and what the gun is really capable of.
They need to be able to handle the weapon in a safe manner and be familiar enough to be able to handle the weapon effectively in a high stress situation.
And they need some training in shooting the weapon in the close confines of a plane without killing innocent bystanders.

Is that sufficient?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Now that you actually asked…

If we are to supply a pilot with weaponry, they need to have basic knowledge of their weapon. They need to know its features and what the gun is really capable of.
They need to be able to handle the weapon in a safe manner and be familiar enough to be able to handle the weapon effectively in a high stress situation.
And they need some training in shooting the weapon in the close confines of a plane without killing innocent bystanders.

Is that sufficient?

No.

What is “basic knowledge” of the weapon? What is “knowing its features and what the gun is really capable of?”

What are the standards for “handling the weapon in a safe manner?”

What is “handling the weapon effectively in a high stress situation” and how is that different from “shooting the weapon in the close confines of a plane without killing innocent bystanders?”

What is the problem your training is supposed to overcome? Where is your documentation the problem actually exists?

 

[vz71]

Vern, you still have not answered a question that was posed to you a couple of days ago…

“Is it really your position that pilots should have firearms without any idea how to safely use them?”

The answer to this drastically effects the various responses I have in mind for your latest. So please explain.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, you still have not answered a question that was posed to you a couple of days ago…

“Is it really your position that pilots should have firearms without any idea how to safely use them?”

You have not answered the question I posed to you – “What is the problem your training program is supposed to solve?”

Document that the problem actually exists, and state your training solution in task-condition-standard format.

The answer to this drastically effects the various responses I have in mind for your latest. So please explain.

The answer to this drastically effects the various responses I have in mind for your latest. So please explain.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

You have not answered the question I posed to you – “What is the problem your training program is supposed to solve?”

Document that the problem actually exists, and state your training solution in task-condition-standard format.

A quick google reveals that this “task-condition-standard format” that Vern requires is a military thing. Vern apparently doesn’t realize that not everyone has been in the military and doesn’t follow this format the he is so enamored with.

Then again, I don’t get this fascination with the military that so many people have these days. I respect those who choose to serve, especially in a just war to defend the United States, but I don’t understand fascination with military culture.

Must be a macho thing.

 

[vern_humphrey]

A quick google reveals that this “task-condition-standard format” that Vern requires is a military thing. Vern apparently doesn’t realize that not everyone has been in the military and doesn’t follow this format the he is so enamored with.

In fact, it is not a “military thing.” It was developed at the University of Florida in the 1960s, and is used throughout the commercial training and education industry – General Motors, among other titans of industry uses it.

Then again, I don’t get this fascination with the military that so many people have these days. I respect those who choose to serve, especially in a just war to defend the United States, but I don’t understand fascination with military culture.

Must be a macho thing.

Like barfing on your keyboard?

 

[Wolseley]

Then again, I don’t get this fascination with the military that so many people have these days. I respect those who choose to serve, especially in a just war to defend the United States, but I don’t understand fascination with military culture.

Most civilians don’t. If you ain’t been there, you’ll never understand it.

Must be a macho thing.

Oh, sure—it just has to be. If you don’t get it, then you can sniff at it by compartmentalizing it with snide little tags like this.

It was people afflicted with this “macho thing” which allows all of us to sit here having this discussion, remember—you seem to have maybe forgotten that.

Or put another way, you’ve lost the bubble in a high warble, gomer; check six on your SA, I read you as three up and locked.

—Wolseley, SSgt, CE; AAC, TAC, SAC, AFRes, USAF 1980-1988.

 

[vz71]

Vern,
This insistance upon some form for your answers, particularly when the other party has confessed a lack of knowledge of that form and a lack of explanation on your part borders upon the high brow elitist snobbery that I am sure is not normally a part of your character.

So please explain, in layman terms, what precisely you want.

And do answer the question…
I have in good faith attempted to answer for what you were after, but apparently am not comprehending what precisely you are after.
However, you seem unwilling or unable to answer simply yes or no questions when they are posed. Hiding behind some “I asked you first…”
I find the response surprising because my three year old does that. Again I am certain this is not normally part of your character…

So…Is it really your position that pilots should have firearms without any idea how to safely use them?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Most civilians don’t. If you ain’t been there, you’ll never understand it.

Thus, I’m inferior and incapable of speaking about anything, is that it?

Oh, sure—it just has to be. If you don’t get it, then you can sniff at it by compartmentalizing it with snide little tags like this.

It was people afflicted with this “macho thing” which allows all of us to sit here having this discussion, remember—you seem to have maybe forgotten that.

Or put another way, you’ve lost the bubble in a high warble, gomer; check six on your SA, I read you as three up and locked.

—Wolseley, SSgt, CE; AAC, TAC, SAC, AFRes, USAF 1980-1988.

Sensitive much?

This is what I’m talking about. There is a life outside the military and civilians aren’t idiots.

While I am grateful for your service to our country, I am offended by the superior attitude that many ex-military have towards those of us who, for whatever reason, are unable to serve. I, for one, wanted to join the Air Force but was not allowed to because I am overweight (which I could have fixed) and have SSA (which I could not have fixed).