What is wrong with the old testament?

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Zeke2517

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I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

Now I am certainly not one to question the bible no matter what it says but SERIOUSLY.

Leviticus 17:7
“They shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the goat demons with which they play the harlot. This shall be a permanent statute to them throughout their generations.”’
 
It just shows that we can’t pick up the Bible and read it cold without any understanding of the people, the cultures or the proper theological understanding.

Things such as the length of hair had a meaning that God wanted them to understanad and to show to the world. It’s rather like having ashes put on our foreheads on Ash Wednesday. It’s a sign of our commitment to Christ, but for those outside of liturgical Christianity, it seems funny.
 
Please get some good, Catholic bible study materials.

There are many good programs, and some are free. Cathoilc Exchange, Scott Hahn’s St Paul Center and others have great materials. Jeff Cavin’s timeline bible study is also a good one for beginners.
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

Now I am certainly not one to question the bible no matter what it says but SERIOUSLY.

Leviticus 17:7
“They shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the goat demons with which they play the harlot. This shall be a permanent statute to them throughout their generations.”’
Click to expand...
I’m with you, I think a lot of the Old Testament is kooky. There are some good parts I think if you are able to truly decipher their meaning.

My thinking is that if the Old Testament had it all right, there wouldn’t have been a need for a New Testament!
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

Now I am certainly not one to question the bible no matter what it says but SERIOUSLY.

Leviticus 17:7
“They shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the goat demons with which they play the harlot. This shall be a permanent statute to them throughout their generations.”’
Click to expand...

The OT - like the rest of the Bible - was not written for (say) New Yorkers living in 2000 AD 🙂​

St. Paul was not a yuppy
Moses was not a Republican activist from the Bible Belt

The OT is over 2000 years old - so it reads as though it could be.

As for the goat demons, or “hairy ones”, these seem to be the beings which the Romans called “satyrs” - they were believed to inhabit the desert; which was a place full of all mamnner of unknown dangers; so sacrificing to such uncanny, unhuman beings makes plenty of sense. Because if they are sacrificed to, they are less likely to do obnoxious things to the sacrificer and his household.

Leviticus 17 is part of a long section in the book which is generally known as the Holiness Code: it prescribes all sorts of behaviours and attitudes to be shown by the Israelites for this reason - JHWH has chosen them from all the nations of the earth to be uniquely His own People, set apart (= holy) by Him for His good pleasure; therefore, they are to do & be some things, while strictly avoiding being or doing other things. And as His Holy People, they are to avoid worshipping, “going a-whoring after”, other gods. They are to be His, exclusively. So all other worships are utterly and universally forbidden to them, under the severest sanctions for disobedience; but with great blessings for obedience. And being holy, extends to everything they do, desire, have, will, or are. Lev. 19.18 gives the reason for all this.

What’s that about hair and the temple ?
 
Then how do we determine what of the OT remains relevant?
 
It is also important to realize that much of the Pentateuch (first five books of the OT) includes the old Jewish law, the Law that Christ came to fulfill. These were requirements given to the Hebrews by God to keep his covenant. Also, as stated before, get a reliable Catholic Old Testament biblestudy, talk with your priest, etc. The Old Testament contains a great deal of knowledge of pre-Christ (aka Jewish) history and instruction on praising God(books past the Pentateuch include more history and prayers - Isaiah, Psalms - than laws - Deuteronomy, Leviticus).

God bless,
Kate
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Then how do we determine what of the OT remains relevant?
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All of it is relevant. Whether or not it is binding is something we can determine by listening to the Church, who has the authority to tell us such things.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
there is nothing wrong with the Old Testament. It is the revealed Word of God. It is not the entire revealed Word of God, who is Jesus Christ, but it forshadows the completion of the Revelation in the person of Jesus Christ, the story of which is recorded in the New Testament. There are still devout orthodox Jews who still abide by those laws and are still obedient to their covenant with God so please do not denigrate their religion. The New Covenant established by Jesus Christ abolished those portions of the law established for discipline and for the period of the Old Covenant, and retained the heart of the law, the Decalogue, which is binding on all men in all times and places. He further interepreted and applied the Law to those living in the New covenant. For the particulars, see the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
 
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mlchance:
All of it is relevant. Whether or not it is binding is something we can determine by listening to the Church, who has the authority to tell us such things.
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I think it’s obviously more relevant to Jewish folks than to Christians. I didn’t think any of it was binding since the New Covenant replaced the old.

I don’t mean to denigrate anyone’s religion, but I was talking about relevance in terms of what Christ taught.

On a side note, I don’t think there’s anything more denigrating to one’s religion than telling them that it is “wrong” and it will send them to hell!
 
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ReformedCatholic:
I’m with you, I think a lot of the Old Testament is kooky. There are some good parts I think if you are able to truly decipher their meaning.

My thinking is that if the Old Testament had it all right, there wouldn’t have been a need for a New Testament!
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What kind of nonsense thinking is that? I see from your profile you describe yourself as Reformed Catholic. What is that?
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

Now I am certainly not one to question the bible no matter what it says but SERIOUSLY.

Leviticus 17:7
“They shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the goat demons with which they play the harlot. This shall be a permanent statute to them throughout their generations.”’
Click to expand...
The Levitical laws were not given to the Israelites to keep God’s covenant, but rather were given by God as punishment for not keeping his covenant as found in the following passage from Ezekiel. Therefore, we cannot expect to find any logic to them.

Ezekiel 20:23-26 Moreover I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the countries, because they had not executed my ordinances, but had rejected my statutes and profaned my sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their fathers’ idols. Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

Now I am certainly not one to question the bible no matter what it says but SERIOUSLY.

Leviticus 17:7
“They shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the goat demons with which they play the harlot. This shall be a permanent statute to them throughout their generations.”’
Click to expand...
Zeke,

I will agree with the other respondent who said that this proves that one should not pick up the Bible cold and expect to understand it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Old Testament; you just have to learn a few things–well okay, a lot of things–about the people and cultures back then.
  • Liberian
 
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thistle:
What kind of nonsense thinking is that? I see from your profile you describe yourself as Reformed Catholic. What is that?
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Nonsense thinking? LOL

It is a Catholic Jurisdiction that derives its Apostolic Succession from the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht, Netherlands and Orthodox Catholic Churches.

What I meant by my comment was that the message- Christ’s message “love God above all else…” and “love one another as I have loved you…” was not clearly conveyed in the Old Testament.

Also, it was kind of a joke.

What I was referring to as “kooky” to me are the hundreds of “commandments” contained therein that nobody seems to pay attention to anymore, just ten of them. Or maybe it’s people who are kooky for not paying attention to them. Who knows.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Nonsense thinking? LOL

What I meant by my comment was that the message- Christ’s message “love God above all else…” and “love one another as I have loved you…” was not clearly conveyed in the Old Testament.
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Actually, Christ’s answer to “What is the first of Gos’s commandments?” (Mk 12:28-31) is directly from the OT in Deut 6:4-5 and Lev 19:18 as follows.

*Deut 6:4-9 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength. Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. Drill them into your children. Speak of them at home and abroad, whether you are busy or at rest. Bind them at your wrist as a sign and let them be as a pendant on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.

Lev 19:18 Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.*
 
Ezekiel 20:23-26 Moreover I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the countries, because they had not executed my ordinances, but had rejected my statutes and profaned my sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their fathers’ idols. Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.
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Yes, good example of what I consider not relevant and actually misleading. To me God would never say or do this sort of thing.
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The angry, vengeful god of the Old Testament to me is not God. God is a God of Love, Light, Truth, Knowledge, Compassion, Charity, etc, etc, etc. All things good. He is Light, therefore he is not darkness.
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Maybe they were actually referring to Zeus.
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ReformedCatholic:
Yes, good example of what I consider not relevant and actually misleading. To me God would never say or do this sort of thing.

The angry, vengeful god of the Old Testament to me is not God. God is a God of Love, Light, Truth, Knowledge, Compassion, Charity, etc, etc, etc. All things good. He is Light, therefore he is not darkness.

Maybe they were actually referring to Zeus.
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God is also all just and therefore punishes the wicked. I do not believe that *Justice * can be considered darkness.
 
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volzcpa:
Actually, Christ’s answer to “What is the first of Gos’s commandments?” (Mk 12:28-31) is directly from the OT in Deut 6:4-5 and Lev 19:18 as follows.

*Deut 6:4-9 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength. Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. Drill them into your children. Speak of them at home and abroad, whether you are busy or at rest. Bind them at your wrist as a sign and let them be as a pendant on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.

Lev 19:18 Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.*
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Right! What Christ said was most important above all else was contained in two tiny little passages in two separate books of a compilation of books that are over a thousand pages in length (in my Bible) and containing hundreds of “commandments!” It was not clear in the Old Testament what was most important and God’s unconditional love for us was obfuscated by misplaced negative anthropomorphization (is that even a word? LOL)
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Yes, good example of what I consider not relevant and actually misleading. To me God would never say or do this sort of thing.

The angry, vengeful god of the Old Testament to me is not God. God is a God of Love, Light, Truth, Knowledge, Compassion, Charity, etc, etc, etc. All things good. He is Light, therefore he is not darkness.

Maybe they were actually referring to Zeus.
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Marcion taught similarly in the 2nd century. He omitted the OT from “his” Bible, because the OT God was not the NT God, in his opinion.
 
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volzcpa:
God is also all just and therefore punishes the wicked. I do not believe that *Justice * can be considered darkness.
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My view on this is that God has put into place certain mechanisms that allow for punishment to come to those who justly deserve it, but I do not view it as God doing the punishing.

You’re right. God is a God of Justice, but I don’t view him as a God of punishment.
 
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