What is wrong with the old testament?

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ReformedCatholic:
My view on this is that God has put into place certain mechanisms that allow for punishment to come to those who justly deserve it, but I do not view it as God doing the punishing.

You’re right. God is a God of Justice, but I don’t view him as a God of punishment.
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There are many references in the New Testament, also, that refer to God’s direct wrath and punishment. I do not see anywhere indicated in Scripture that God’s punishment is inflicted through an indirect mechanism. Here just a few-

*Hebrews 12:5-6 And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? – “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.

Rom 2:5-6 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works:

Rom 3:5 But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)

Rom 12: 19: Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Rev 14: 10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.*
 
The Old Testament is a record of the Old Covenant between God and humanity. What is wrong with it is humanity could not keep its part of the covenant. That caused a great deal of trouble for humanity but not an endless amount because, by the grace of God we have a New Testament and New Covenant.

From Jeremiah:

“The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more.” Peace - Jim
 
Don’t worry…you’re in good company. Albino Luciani (Pope John Paul I) was of the belief that the government should put a warning sticker on the Old Testament stating “This is a work of fiction”.

Demetrios
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Nonsense thinking? LOL

It is a Catholic Jurisdiction that derives its Apostolic Succession from the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht, Netherlands and Orthodox Catholic Churches.
What I meant by my comment was that the message- Christ’s message “love God above all else…” and “love one another as I have loved you…” was not clearly conveyed in the Old Testament.

Also, it was kind of a joke.

What I was referring to as “kooky” to me are the hundreds of “commandments” contained therein that nobody seems to pay attention to anymore, just ten of them. Or maybe it’s people who are kooky for not paying attention to them. Who knows.
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Excuse my ignorance but I’ve never heard of that church.
Is it part of the Catholic Church (the one true Church) or is it one of the many external catholic churches that sprung up founded by schismatics?
 
In the OT, I’ve always been kind of amused by Deuteronomy 25:11-12: When two men are fighting, and the wife of one intervenes to save her husband from the blows of his opponent, if she stretches out her hand and seizes the latter by his private parts, you shall chop off her hand without pity.
Nobody ever holds up signs at football games reading “Dt 25:11-12.”

For that matter, I don’t think that one ever comes up in the lectionary readings.

I’m almost afraid to mention it, for fear that some now and forever literalist will try to enforce it.

The OT was written for a nomadic tribal people. The rules have evolved over the centuries, as well as the image of God presented. The trouble with such groups as the Taliban, for example, is that they take this highly anthromorphic view of God and carry it into the 20th century, without regard to the teachings of the New Testament or any developments in theological understanding.
 
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volzcpa:
There are many references in the New Testament, also, that refer to God’s direct wrath and punishment. I do not see anywhere indicated in Scripture that God’s punishment is inflicted through an indirect mechanism. Here just a few-

*Hebrews 12:5-6 And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? – “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.

Rom 2:5-6 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works:

Rom 3:5 But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)

Rom 12: 19: Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Rev 14: 10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.*
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Those are interesting citations. I’d like to know if there are any other interpretations/translations for the words that refer to “wrath” or “judgement” or “vengance” and “punishment” and so forth, in the original languages.
 
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thistle:
Excuse my ignorance but I’ve never heard of that church.
Is it part of the Catholic Church (the one true Church) or is it one of the many external catholic churches that sprung up founded by schismatics?
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It is a newer denomination that stems from the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht, which broke away from Rome after the first Vatican Council over the issue of Papal Infallability. They retain valid Apostolic Succession (yes, even recognized by Rome) so they would consider themselves a part of the One True Church, however, many Roman Catholics would probably consider them schizmatics.
 
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demetrios1973:
Don’t worry…you’re in good company. Albino Luciani (Pope John Paul I) was of the belief that the government should put a warning sticker on the Old Testament stating “This is a work of fiction”.

Demetrios
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LOL!! That’s priceless!
 
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JimG:
In the OT, I’ve always been kind of amused by Deuteronomy 25:11-12: When two men are fighting, and the wife of one intervenes to save her husband from the blows of his opponent, if she stretches out her hand and seizes the latter by his private parts, you shall chop off her hand without pity.
Nobody ever holds up signs at football games reading “Dt 25:11-12.”

For that matter, I don’t think that one ever comes up in the lectionary readings.

I’m almost afraid to mention it, for fear that some now and forever literalist will try to enforce it.

The OT was written for a nomadic tribal people. The rules have evolved over the centuries, as well as the image of God presented. The trouble with such groups as the Taliban, for example, is that they take this highly anthromorphic view of God and carry it into the 20th century, without regard to the teachings of the New Testament or any developments in theological understanding.
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LOL… That’s great. I’m making my sign for next football season.
 
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demetrios1973:
Don’t worry…you’re in good company. Albino Luciani (Pope John Paul I) was of the belief that the government should put a warning sticker on the Old Testament stating “This is a work of fiction”.

Demetrios
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That sounds like pure fiction. What is your source for that information.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Yes, good example of what I consider not relevant and actually misleading. To me God would never say or do this sort of thing.

The angry, vengeful god of the Old Testament to me is not God. God is a God of Love, Light, Truth, Knowledge, Compassion, Charity, etc, etc, etc. All things good. He is Light, therefore he is not darkness.

Maybe they were actually referring to Zeus.
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The Old Testament is before Jesus Who is Love, Light, Truth, Knowledge, Compassion, Charity, etc. " Jesus, looking at the crowd was moved with pity, for they had no leader and were lost and abandoned. " God, the Father sent His Son to explain the Old Testament.
 
Rebecca New:
The Old Testament is before Jesus Who is Love, Light, Truth, Knowledge, Compassion, Charity, etc. " Jesus, looking at the crowd was moved with pity, for they had no leader and were lost and abandoned. " God, the Father sent His Son to explain the Old Testament.
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Right, so He had to correct the misunderstanding that God was angry and vengeful. If he were truly that way, He never would have sent Jesus in the first place.
 
Marcion threw out the Old Testament, because of the contradiction between the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the New Testament.

He also refused to acknowledge any gospel except for the gospel of Luke, because he wanted to rid any aspect of Judaism from the New Testament.

More on Marcion:

earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

-Demetrios
 
Ooops…I didn’t mean to repeat information. I see now that Marcion was mentioned already.

Apologies.

Demetrios
 
Just some info,

The only reference I can find to JPI regarding the OT as a “work of fiction” is in regard to an entirely questionable “biography” called Murder in the Vatican by Lucien Gregoire. It appears to have been largely a work of poorly edited fiction itself (and also largely associated with anti-Catholic, conspiracy theory thinking).

God bless,
k
 
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demetrios1973:
Marcion threw out the Old Testament, because of the contradiction between the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the New Testament.

He also refused to acknowledge any gospel except for the gospel of Luke, because he wanted to rid any aspect of Judaism from the New Testament.

More on Marcion:

earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

-Demetrios
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No, that’s cool. Thanks for the link. This seems to be a more objective and informative site. The other one refered to him and his beliefs as “possibly the greatest danger to Christianity” or some nonsense like that. LOL
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

Now I am certainly not one to question the bible no matter what it says but SERIOUSLY.

Leviticus 17:7
“They shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the goat demons with which they play the harlot. This shall be a permanent statute to them throughout their generations.”’
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The Old Testament is God’s Word. The New Testament says so. Therefore, every single word in the Old Testament speaks of Christ, for there is one Word, and that is the Son.

That said, we must read the OT in its historical and cultural context. What does your sample verse say? That we we do not offer sacrifice to any God but God. We may not offer to goat demons but even Christians may still have their little gods that they worship. This verse can be developed into a Christian exhortation about loving God above all else (i.e. not playing the harlot).

And those comments about the God of the OT being a vengeful God and not the God of love, etc, etc is a lot of hogwash. Christ revered the OT and St. Paul called it inspired of God. Such comments as those above make God a liar. There is but One God, and Jesus and NT writers recognized him as that One God.

Indeed God punishes. He does so because he is a Father to us and expects more of sons than defendants. The OT punishments may seem harsh to us, but during those times, harsh punishments were what were required. Again, culture and history. Regardless of how it seems to us now, the OT still speaks the truth. It may just require a bit more study now because of its distance from us in time.
 
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porthos11:
The Old Testament is God’s Word. The New Testament says so. Therefore, every single word in the Old Testament speaks of Christ, for there is one Word, and that is the Son.

That said, we must read the OT in its historical and cultural context. What does your sample verse say? That we we do not offer sacrifice to any God but God. We may not offer to goat demons but even Christians may still have their little gods that they worship. This verse can be developed into a Christian exhortation about loving God above all else (i.e. not playing the harlot).

And those comments about the God of the OT being a vengeful God and not the God of love, etc, etc is a lot of hogwash. Christ revered the OT and St. Paul called it inspired of God. Such comments as those above make God a liar. There is but One God, and Jesus and NT writers recognized him as that One God.

Indeed God punishes. He does so because he is a Father to us and expects more of sons than defendants. The OT punishments may seem harsh to us, but during those times, harsh punishments were what were required. Again, culture and history. Regardless of how it seems to us now, the OT still speaks the truth. It may just require a bit more study now because of its distance from us in time.
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A father corrects out of love and the desire for the well-being of the child- not out of vengance, wrath, or anger. Nowadays, we call that abuse when it happens.

I think a lot of the NT references and the Church’s emphasis on the OT is simply an attempt to keep it relevant and to retain the motivational value of having a God that might strike you down, and send you into an eternal hell.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
I think a lot of the NT references and the Church’s emphasis on the OT is simply an attempt to keep it relevant and to retain the motivational value of having a God that might strike you down, and send you into an eternal hell.
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So you do not accept the New Testament’s (never mind the Church’s) declarations that the OT is inspired of God?
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve not read much but from what I have it seems quite crazy. Outlandish rules such as hair over the temple etc. etc.

."’
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bear in mind that their are orthodox Jews today who are still faithful to the OT law and I would be very careful about criticizing the religous practice of others in which you are not instructed and of which you have no knowledge or appreciation. Just because you do not understand something does not make it valueless or meaningless, or outlandish.
 
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