C
cheese_sdc
Guest
I don’t recall saying I believe in everything.One can’t believe in everything and still believe in something.
- Status
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Is it even Christian to make such claims about other Christians? Of course we would all have to agree on the folly of this, no?
Thats a terrible error as a Christian. You would place at fault another’s believe and elect{the Pope} to raise one’s own status as a Christian? Wow, thats some thinking which surely doesn’t appear in Holy Bible.
Peace
Thats a terrible error as a Christian. You would place at fault another’s believe and elect{the Pope} to raise one’s own status as a Christian? Wow, thats some thinking which surely doesn’t appear in Holy Bible.
Peace
P
PRmerger
Guest
IOW: religion is man’s attempt to find God.
But there is only one religion in which God actually came down to find us!
And by that one act, it makes all other attempt to find God (i.e. religions) inferior.
L
LPS
Guest
Hello Holly - I have a good friend who believes “all are saved” and I’ve spent several years studying it.
You are right … it does seem very open-minded and loving. But I realized I couldn’t believe something because it sounded “nice” or because I wanted to; that certainly isn’t a good way to find Truth. Remember this scripture passage:
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4:3-4)
With that in mind, I prayed that God would protect me from being deceived, and show me Truth. Over time He has shown me many scriptures and confirmed in my heart & mind that not all are saved. (I’ll post a few but if you’d like to see more let me know and I will send them to you).
But also, I realized that while I was studying, I really did want to believe it. And guess what? I had stopped praying for salvation for others; I had stopped praying for souls in purgatory; I had stopped praying even for my children - that they grow in faith and be protected from evil. Do you know that most who believe in unitarian universalism, don’t believe in demons or evil? They think those are “stories” that describe the wickedness in each one of us … not actual entities.
So I have come to believe that while it may “sound” good, it is also dangerous because it leaves us unprotected by prayer. If everyone is saved, why bother praying for them?
Here are some of the clearest scriptures that I think show not all are saved:
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
Isa 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise;
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
Sir 15:12 Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man.
Sir 15:13 Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him.
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 ** Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.**
Sir 15:18 Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing.
Sir 15:19 The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man’s every deed.
Sir 15:20 No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Admitting we do not truly know with 100% absolute certainty what are actually matters of faith, is an ingredient called reality within the recipe, PR.
P
PRmerger
Guest
If you’ll notice in my post I never said 100% certainty. You always like to add that part for some reason
. (Actually, I know what that “some reason” is–to provide some logic to your illogical position.)Take that “100% certainty” principle out and then what happens?
wait for it…
wait for it…
Here’s what you get: a nonsensical theological paradigm in which all can propose their truths, even if it’s contrary, contradictory and illogical.
C
CMatt25
Guest
But PR I am always hearing Catholics tell me they know and have all revealed Truth. So either they know this with certainty or they do not truly know it.If you’ll notice in my post I never said 100% certainty. You always like to add that part for some reason
Take that “100% certainty” principle out and then what happens?
wait for it…
wait for it…
Here’s what you get: a nonsensical theological paradigm in which all can propose their truths, even if it’s contrary, contradictory and illogical.
This is no different than if I say I know I have the truth. Or Fred Phelps or anyone else for that matter. Except the difference is I don’t go around saying I know I do. I think perhaps what Catholics, SDA, etc, even Fred Phelps really mean is they BELIEVE they know it and have it. Huge huge difference though between that and truly knowing.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Just wondering what you mean by this, cheese.
Is it also true to say that Divinity is finite?
P
PRmerger
Guest
P
PRmerger
Guest
S
Soldier_Of_God
Guest
It would seem Unitarian Universalists espouse a pluralist approach to religion. You can be an atheist to theist or anywhere in between. They simple borrow ideas or concepts is convenient or useful from other religions. Althought they are relatively benign group, having a lack of concrete, objective values make Unitarian Universalists a religion of moral relativists, an ultimately self-refuting position. Furthemore, if salvation is automatic, where is the justice in choosing to do good or being a virtuous moral agent over being selfish and pernicious?
S
seeker57
Guest
Sorry to come late to the game here, so to speak.
To answer the initial question, there is nothing wrong with Unitarian Universalism, though others here seem to disagree.
Now, to all the banter:
You cannot be a UU and believe anything you want. We have a set of seven principles that are used as a foundation of our faith. If you can’t support those principles, you probably won’t be happy as UU.
We also have six sources used in our faith. Among these are the Judeo-Christian teachings of loving and caring for one another.
Next, we are a covenental faith, not a creedal faith. Catholics are a creedal faith (you recite creeds professing you all believe in the same thing.)
We covenant to support each other in our search for truth and meaning, in the hope we can achieve our mission by changing ourselves, our communities and our world for the better.
UUs are not converted. There is no indoctrination, and you need not denounce any other religious beliefs you may hold.
It is correct to say we believe what we do is important, not just what we believe. There is a UU hymn that states we must live in the now, not wait for the hereafter.
By definition, we are unitarian. That means we don’t place any credence in the trinity. That is part of our history and has defined us since we grew up alongside the American Revolution.
Also by definition, we are universalist, which means universal salvation. Many Christians seem to live their entire lives in fear of eternal perdition.
That is why we often say UUs are “good for nothing,” because we believe in doing good works because it is the right thing to do, not because we expect some kind of reward for it.
We are not Christian, although we have members who describe themselves as Christian. We celebrate Christian holidays just as we celebrate Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and holidays of other faiths.
Many UUs would say Jesus was a wise man, or a wise teacher or rabbi. Many also do not believe in his divinity.
God, or the divine, is too big to be contained by one religion or faith process. We believe all faiths may contain some truth, that is why we study them. At the same time, we would probably agree that no one faith has “the truth.”
We believe the Bible can be a good religious text, but that there are others.
Some here have said we are too liberal because we accept all people, be they Gay, etc.
It is true we are a liberal faith. Universalists were either the first or among the first to ordain women.
Today, we support GLBT rights, including the right to marry, and Gay marriages are performed in many UU congregations.
But, I will be the first to admit that Unitarian Universalism won’t appeal to everyone.
Some people don’t like the idea of not being told what to believe. They like more structure, more dogma, etc., which is perfectly fine if it meets their needs.
Being a UU is not the easy road, as some have said, because we don’t expect God to help and we have no set of instructions.
We are not told what to believe, we must search that out for ourselves. And, if that road would lead some UUs to Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or Buddhism, that is fine too.
Or, you might think of it this way; Unitarian Universalism, where all your answers are questioned.
Peace,
Seeker
To answer the initial question, there is nothing wrong with Unitarian Universalism, though others here seem to disagree.
Now, to all the banter:
You cannot be a UU and believe anything you want. We have a set of seven principles that are used as a foundation of our faith. If you can’t support those principles, you probably won’t be happy as UU.
We also have six sources used in our faith. Among these are the Judeo-Christian teachings of loving and caring for one another.
Next, we are a covenental faith, not a creedal faith. Catholics are a creedal faith (you recite creeds professing you all believe in the same thing.)
We covenant to support each other in our search for truth and meaning, in the hope we can achieve our mission by changing ourselves, our communities and our world for the better.
UUs are not converted. There is no indoctrination, and you need not denounce any other religious beliefs you may hold.
It is correct to say we believe what we do is important, not just what we believe. There is a UU hymn that states we must live in the now, not wait for the hereafter.
By definition, we are unitarian. That means we don’t place any credence in the trinity. That is part of our history and has defined us since we grew up alongside the American Revolution.
Also by definition, we are universalist, which means universal salvation. Many Christians seem to live their entire lives in fear of eternal perdition.
That is why we often say UUs are “good for nothing,” because we believe in doing good works because it is the right thing to do, not because we expect some kind of reward for it.
We are not Christian, although we have members who describe themselves as Christian. We celebrate Christian holidays just as we celebrate Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and holidays of other faiths.
Many UUs would say Jesus was a wise man, or a wise teacher or rabbi. Many also do not believe in his divinity.
God, or the divine, is too big to be contained by one religion or faith process. We believe all faiths may contain some truth, that is why we study them. At the same time, we would probably agree that no one faith has “the truth.”
We believe the Bible can be a good religious text, but that there are others.
Some here have said we are too liberal because we accept all people, be they Gay, etc.
It is true we are a liberal faith. Universalists were either the first or among the first to ordain women.
Today, we support GLBT rights, including the right to marry, and Gay marriages are performed in many UU congregations.
But, I will be the first to admit that Unitarian Universalism won’t appeal to everyone.
Some people don’t like the idea of not being told what to believe. They like more structure, more dogma, etc., which is perfectly fine if it meets their needs.
Being a UU is not the easy road, as some have said, because we don’t expect God to help and we have no set of instructions.
We are not told what to believe, we must search that out for ourselves. And, if that road would lead some UUs to Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or Buddhism, that is fine too.
Or, you might think of it this way; Unitarian Universalism, where all your answers are questioned.
Peace,
Seeker
P
PRmerger
Guest
Eek! This sounds like the recipe for chaos and confusion!
A
Ahimsa
Guest
How important is it to be “unitarian” these days (as opposed to, say, 1850?), since the Seven Principles don’t mention anything about God or the nature of God? Can’t a person personally believe in the Trinity, and yet agree with the Seven Principles and even agree that “unitarian” is a useful, though not exhaustive, description of God?
S
Soldier_Of_God
Guest
You initially said this…
Then you went on to say this…
It seems you’ve contradicted yourself.
B
Big_Dummy
Guest
Let’s see off the top of my head
No Hell – Jesus taught more about this then anything else
Everyone goes to Heaven — another gospel Gal 1:6-8
tends to be pro abortion, pro gay marriage, democrat voting
Anti-Trinity
Jesus is not god
No Hell – Jesus taught more about this then anything else
Everyone goes to Heaven — another gospel Gal 1:6-8
tends to be pro abortion, pro gay marriage, democrat voting
Anti-Trinity
Jesus is not god
C
CMatt25
Guest
:harp: :extrahappy: :hug1:
C
CMatt25
Guest
Seeker, I was hoping you would find us here.
Thanks for the insight. Peace.
T
Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Ave Maria
Before reading seeker, I am not taking any demeaning tones against you but only “seeking truth.” So when I say “contradictions”, It is not an attack on you but the observation of what is seen.
My friend, are you totally convinced that this faith is “the way”? Whatever “way” that it be for that individual for that day. I ask you to do what you believe, and question the answers you’ve been given or the answers that you’ve “enlightened” to on your own. Test the answers by fire and if they be indestructible, they will not changed or damaged by the process.
Pax
Before reading seeker, I am not taking any demeaning tones against you but only “seeking truth.” So when I say “contradictions”, It is not an attack on you but the observation of what is seen.
Can you explain the contradictions in this compilation I’ve formed?
Another contradiction, you say you are not a creedal faith yet you have a creed to the unitarian concept. Therefore, you are a creedal faith. Any profession of faith is creedal, whatever you believe is creedal whether it changes from day to day does not change the fact you are creedal in that very day.
With this attitude towards our Lord, you are faced with CS. Lewis’s Trilemma.
I’ve been down that road before and all it is, is depression and uncertainty. You think God to be so illogical to convey truths in all religions that seemingly contradict each other at every doctrinal level? You think Him to be so irrational that he would create an orderly universe, an orderly human mind and yet not convey an orderly and singular truth that contains His full message? Your concept places humanity in a rat maze, God is the observer, and we have to figure out how to find the exit all by ourselves. An extremely contradictory belief with the nature of God being loving and just.
My friend, are you totally convinced that this faith is “the way”? Whatever “way” that it be for that individual for that day. I ask you to do what you believe, and question the answers you’ve been given or the answers that you’ve “enlightened” to on your own. Test the answers by fire and if they be indestructible, they will not changed or damaged by the process.
Pax
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Christianity, in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is Covenantal. Romans 7. The Old Covenant has died and the New Covenant is Christ. Yes, we have creeds to clarify for those that want to wander and believe anything they choose. We are a Covenat, a family, a sacred family bond formed with Christ through which he brings all into his fold through the Church as Paul routinely states in his epistles.
- Status