What is wrong with Unitarian Universalism?

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Ahimsa said:
How important is it to be “unitarian” these days (as opposed to, say, 1850?), since the Seven Principles don’t mention anything about God or the nature of God? Can’t a person personally believe in the Trinity, and yet agree with the Seven Principles and even agree that “unitarian” is a useful, though not exhaustive, description of God?
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I agree it was probably more important when Unitarians were actually a form of liberal Christianity.

The answer to your second quetions, or series of questions, is yes.

Peace,

Seeker
 
seeker57 said:
I agree it was probably more important when Unitarians were actually a form of liberal Christianity.

The answer to your second quetions, or series of questions, is yes.

Peace,

Seeker
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Seeker, so could I be a Christian believing in the deity of Jesus, His Resurrection, in the Trinity, in His teachings of love and compassion, but be respectful to other faiths, and be UU too?
 
seeker57 said:
I agree it was probably more important when Unitarians were actually a form of liberal Christianity.

The answer to your second quetions, or series of questions, is yes.

Peace,

Seeker
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So let me see here.

You are a Christian.

No I am a Conservative Christian and what about you, well now I am a Liberal Christian, and as for my friend here he is a moderate Christian, and well then how do we decide who this Christ is? Is He Liberal, Moderate, Conservative or some other form we do not know? Is it possible that we are applying our nomanilisms to something that does not need a modifier unless we want to worship our reason.

Christ was God/man. I can understand that . Want to be a Christian? Go get baptized and follow Christ. Was Christ Liberal, Moderate, Conservative? Show me one Liberal, one Moderate, one Conservative that exemplifies that category that satisfies that definition for all?

I can show you one Christ that never stated He was Liberal, Moderate or Conservative. He just said follow me.

Unitarians are a form of Liberal Christianity? Which Christ do you follow?
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
You initially said this…
Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker57
You cannot be a UU and believe anything you want. We have a set of seven principles that are used as a foundation of our faith.
Then you went on to say this…
Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker57
We are not told what to believe, we must search that out for ourselves.
It seems you’ve contradicted yourself.
“Most men seem to live according to sense rather than reason.”
̶ Saint Thomas Aquinas
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Yes, that was pointed out a couple of times. Sorry, I was less than clear.

In the first instance, I was referring to the principles we, as UUs, use as guides for our fellowship with other UUs and our gathering as a congregation.

An example is the first principle, which states we believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

Now, if someone perhaps were a racist and believed someone of a different race was inferior, that person would not be supporting that first principle. He would probably not feel comfortable in a UU congregation where we. as a fellowship, try to treat each other with respect as equals.

In other words, the first example was our using of the principles to help guide us in our dealings with each other as a fellowship or congregation, and, extrapolating from that, how we try to interact with those outside our church walls.

The second example refers to our individual search for truth and meaning, whatever path that might take.

For example, I recently attended a UU retreat where one of the officiating UU ministers follows Buddhist beliefs. She is an ordained UU minister, and believes and supports the seven principles, but she herself is a practicing Buddhist, and that is her spiritual path she has chosen in her search for truth and meaning.

In this case, we, as UUs would never tell this minister she had to drop the Buddhist beliefs and be only a UU, or any other belief for that matter.

The second example was how we view individual choice and personal growth and searching for our own spiritual path.

I hope that makes things clearer.

Peace,

Seeker
 
CMatt25 said:
Seeker, so could I be a Christian believing in the deity of Jesus, His Resurrection, in the Trinity, in His teachings of love and compassion, but be respectful to other faiths, and be UU too?
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Yes, at least I think you would find yourself comfortable in a UU congregation. There are some UU congregations that still view Christ as the focus of their traditions, albeit probably in a different fashion than many less liberal Christian traditions do.

There are, indeed, Christians in my own little fellowship. They are UUs, but their personal spiritual path is Christian.

But, I am not too sure about the Trinity. The whole foundation of early Unitarian congregations was based on the argument there was no biblical truth to the claims of a trinity.

Since my own spiritual path is not Christian, and I am far from a biblical scholar, I cannot argue that point one way or the other. But I do know that, historically, that is where the original state churches of Boston and other New England communities split, some becoming Congregationalist Christian churches and some becoming Unitarian churches.

It is an interesting point to ponder. I may well bring it up in our religious education class, just to see what others say.

Peace,

Seeker
 
seeker57 said:
Yes, that was pointed out a couple of times. Sorry, I was less than clear.

In the first instance, I was referring to the principles we, as UUs, use as guides for our fellowship with other UUs and our gathering as a congregation.

The second example refers to our individual search for truth and meaning, whatever path that might take.

I hope that makes things clearer.

Peace,

Seeker
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I appreciate the effort and clarification on your part. However, these approaches are not compatible with each other. I’m not sure if you reconciled the dichotomy of your position. Having a principle that that is ultimately undermined by another does not sound reasonable or well conceived.

From a personal standpoint, the Unitarian Universalism ideals of humanism and tolerance are quite laudable but seem to be merely buzz words to advance to what is basically a new age movement. It is a theology of “feel-goodism,” “universal tolerance,” and “moral relativism.” The Unitarian Universalism position moral of relativism or subjectivity as well as a lack of confirmed values seems to make this movement idiosyncratic and even self contradictory.

I know my viewpoint may seem quite harsh and apologize for that impression.
 
PRmerger said:
Just wondering what you mean by this, cheese.
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The Christian God is, by definition, infinite, omnipotent, and omnipresent. It is my understanding that this is a common, non-controversial statement. 🙂
Is it also true to say that Divinity is finite?
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I think most people would say “no”.
 
seeker57 said:
Yes, at least I think you would find yourself comfortable in a UU congregation. There are some UU congregations that still view Christ as the focus of their traditions, albeit probably in a different fashion than many less liberal Christian traditions do.

There are, indeed, Christians in my own little fellowship. They are UUs, but their personal spiritual path is Christian.

But, I am not too sure about the Trinity. The whole foundation of early Unitarian congregations was based on the argument there was no biblical truth to the claims of a trinity.

Since my own spiritual path is not Christian, and I am far from a biblical scholar, I cannot argue that point one way or the other. But I do know that, historically, that is where the original state churches of Boston and other New England communities split, some becoming Congregationalist Christian churches and some becoming Unitarian churches.

It is an interesting point to ponder. I may well bring it up in our religious education class, just to see what others say.

Peace,

Seeker
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Unitarians were actually a form of liberal Christianity.
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You previously stated that Unitarians are a form of liberal Christianity. This should be written “form” of liberal Christianity. The question that follows then is how do you define Liberal Christianity and then what is that form. I have yet to see you tackle this for clarification.

I am fascinated by your continued use of modifiers. It is indicative of the UU approach to modify if you look at what you propose. Now you say LESS Liberal Christian.

So now we have

Christians
Liberal Christians
Less Liberal Christians

This opens the door to
Ultra Less Less Liberal Christians
Super Ultra Less LIberal Christians
and so on

I would like for you to define and give examples of

Christian
Liberal Christian
Less Liberal Christian

Who are these people you speak of?
 
seeker57 said:
Only if a person thinks of his answers as absolute. If thought of in more fluid terms, it isn’t that chaotic.

But it still can be confusing at times.

Peace,

Seeker
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How is it a religion? Sounds more like a group that strives for Political Correctness at all costs!
 
My 30 yr old daughter went to a UU “church” with my practicing aunt and uncle and was excited to tell me that they prayed a Wiccan prayer (sadly yes–she is wiccan). I read a handout from this “church” once, their entire service centered around a vile of DIRT!!:eek:

Let me explain. this couple returned from an overseas vacation and brought back a vile of dirt and they placed it on their altar, reasons it said was to celebrate mother earth and all that she provides for her children and the gods that sustains it all.:eek::eek:

Their “church” supports

…homosexual marriage

…abortion on demand

…euthenasia

…contraception for kids as young as grade school without parent knowledge

…and last but not least…beliefs in as many gods and goddesses as you like or none at all

I am sure that other UU’s believe in different things, but this seems to be the norm after researching the faith.

I will stick with the One True and Original Church founded on the Rock of Peter with Jesus the Christ as the Chief cornerstone. I am staying CATHOLIC:thumbsup:
 
MaryandJoseph said:
My 30 yr old daughter went to a UU “church” with my practicing aunt and uncle and was excited to tell me that they prayed a Wiccan prayer (sadly yes–she is wiccan). I read a handout from this “church” once, their entire service centered around a vile of DIRT!!:eek:

Let me explain. this couple returned from an overseas vacation and brought back a vile of dirt and they placed it on their altar, reasons it said was to celebrate mother earth and all that she provides for her children and the gods that sustains it all.:eek::eek:

Their “church” supports

…homosexual marriage

…abortion on demand

…euthenasia

…contraception for kids as young as grade school without parent knowledge

…and last but not least…beliefs in as many gods and goddesses as you like or none at all

I am sure that other UU’s believe in different things, but this seems to be the norm after researching the faith.

I will stick with the One True and Original Church founded on the Rock of Peter with Jesus the Christ as the Chief cornerstone. I am staying CATHOLIC:thumbsup:
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Me too!

Unitariaism is nothing more that a Trinitarian error dating back to the 16th century. The principle author of this error was Faustus Socinus. By interpeting The Holy Scripture arbitrarily, according to the Lutheran principle (liberty of thought), they believed they could demonstrate that the mystery of the Trinity is foreign to the Gospel, which, they claimed, teaches only the doctrine of a unique God. Unitariainism is reductively a kind of modalism.

By denying the Trinity, the have something in common with the JW’s.
 
cheese_sdc said:
The Christian God is, by definition, infinite, omnipotent, and omnipresent. It is my understanding that this is a common, non-controversial statement. 🙂
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Non controversial, Cheese, commonly in perhaps most circles. 🙂
 
I appreciated reading your thoughts and description of the UU Seeker and Cheese. I once looked for a UU church to see what it was all about but unfortunately there were none near by.

Thanks for posting. 🙂
 
cheese_sdc said:
The Christian God is, by definition, infinite, omnipotent, and omnipresent. It is my understanding that this is a common, non-controversial statement. 🙂

I think most people would say “no”.
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Ah, very good, then.

This piques my curiosity. Would a UU church permit a person to preach on a concept of a finite god?
 
Brendan said:
The Unitarians, by definition, were never a form of Christianity. They denied the Trinity, and likewise the Hypostatic Union.

As such, they cannot, and could not, be considered to be Christian.
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Depending on how one defines Christian.

“Originally, all Unitarians were Christians who didn’t believe in the Holy Trinity of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), but in the unity, or single aspect, of God. Later, Unitarian beliefs stressed the importance of rational thinking, a direct relationship with God, and the humanity of Jesus. Universalism emerged as a Christian denomination with a central belief in universal salvation; that is, that all people will eventually be reconciled with God.”

uua.org/beliefs/history/

“Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion with Jewish-Christian roots.”

uua.org/association/index.shtml
 
CMatt25 said:
Depending on how one defines Christian.
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Being that the definition of a Christian is not relative nor interpretive, it does not matter if one defines a Christian any other way then the true definition. Are you baptized in the Trinitarian Formula and do you believe in the Nicean Trinity concept? If no to either you are not a Christian.

Wonder if I can call myself a Muslim even though I deny Muhammad as the Prophet and God as The Slavemaster?
 
John_Carlton said:
I’m a Mainer (and no, that isn’t what’s wrong with Unitarianism) and my favourite secular author is John McDonald, author of the Maine Dictionary. In his book, the Maine Dictionary he defines Unitarian Universalism as a place for unbelievers to go because they haven’t given up on religion. They’re also reported to have good bean-suppahs. Universalism is the conclusion to Protestantism. You hit the nail in the face with your “there’s only one truth” bit. Unitarians, like most post-Apostolic faiths, are more interested in the liberal pipedream of appearing fair and open-minded to everybody at the exclusion of being fair and open-minded towards objectivity. When a doctrine is inconvenient it is rejected. There aren’t many religious doctrines that are devastatingly convenient to the user. It’s a comfort measure, really, how could anything divine go on their when they can’t agree on the nature of divinity? Fellowship is good, but religion ought to be taken seriously. From what I read the moral standing of Universalism is relativism incarnate. You might as well just join a country club and work out your religious kinks solitarily.
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"Universalism as a place for unbelievers to go because they haven’t given up on religion." :sad_yes:
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
Being that the definition of a Christian is not relative nor interpretive, it does not matter if one defines a Christian any other way then the true definition. Are you baptized in the Trinitarian Formula and do you believe in the Nicean Trinity concept? If no to either you are not a Christian.
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Unless of course you are a non trinitarian Christian who believes in and follows to the best of your understanding Jesus Christ and the teachings of Jesus Christ, from Whom the name Christian derives. And you consider yourself a Christian as such.
 
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