What is your definition of Evangelical?

[saribee]

Was just in a class where we discussed how there is no one uniform definition for this, and it is commonly used in the press without really knowing what it means. What would you say “Evangelical” means and is it possible to be an Evangelical Catholic?

 

[Barbkw]

I watch the “Journey Home” program on EWTN. So so many converts are thankful to Evangelicals for finding them and providing them their initial training to understanding Scripture.

This last episode of the “Journey Home” from 11/07/2011 with convert Dan Burke from Judaism / Evangelicalism is available as an example at:

youtube.com/user/EWTN#p/u/13/ZWfYQGIadQQ

Whatever the Evangelicals do, the Catholic Church should be grateful.

Roselind Moss also came to the Church from an Evangelical background.

Mother Miriam’s interview with Fr. Mitch is here:

youtube.com/user/EWTN#p/u/64/MTAyeffTi7I

 

[SteveVH]

Was just in a class where we discussed how there is no one uniform definition for this, and it is commonly used in the press without really knowing what it means. What would you say “Evangelical” means and is it possible to be an Evangelical Catholic?

If you mean it in the sense that we are to “evangelize” then yes, we should all be evangelical Catholics and the Catholic Church is an evangelical Church. That is its mission; to spread the kingdom of God to all the earth through evengelization.

 

[JonNC]

Was just in a class where we discussed how there is no one uniform definition for this, and it is commonly used in the press without really knowing what it means. What would you say “Evangelical” means and is it possible to be an Evangelical Catholic?

The Christian Cyclopedia defines the term as meaning “loyal to the Gospel of Christ”. By that definition, it seems completely possible to be both evangelical and Catholic.

cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=E&t2=v
Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Was just in a class where we discussed how there is no one uniform definition for this, and it is commonly used in the press without really knowing what it means. What would you say “Evangelical” means and is it possible to be an Evangelical Catholic?

“Evangelical” in the popular sense means a specific type of Protestant who:

1. Embraces the (erroneous) Lutheran formula of “salvation by grace alone through faith alone”;
2. relies upon individual interpretation of the partial Lutheran Bible canon as the only source of authority; and
3. contrasts himself/herself to mainline Protestantism, usually rejecting the label of “Protestant” (and “Lutheran”) in the process.

Of course this is a misappropriation of the term. To be “Evangelical” means to embrace the “Good News” (the literal meaning of the term) of Jesus Christ. Catholics are evangelical by that definition.

 

[JonNC]

=Cat Herder;8560995]“Evangelical” in the popular sense means a specific type of Protestant who:

1. Embraces the (erroneous) Lutheran formula of “salvation by grace alone through faith alone”;

According to the JDDJ, the Lutheran view is not so erroneous as you imply.

1. relies upon individual interpretation of the partial Lutheran Bible canon as the only source of authority; and

This is not accurate, as Lutherans rely on the Confessions as the true reflection of scripture, not individual interpretation.

1. contrasts himself/herself to mainline Protestantism, usually rejecting the label of “Protestant” (and “Lutheran”) in the process.

Not exactly true, either. I am perfectly fine with the name “Lutheran”. The probelm with the term protestant is two-fold: 1) it is used in a way that is outside its original usage, and 2) it groups various communions in a way that implies, erroneously, that they once were a singular communion (ie. Calvinists broke away from Lutheranism, etc).

The use of evangelical catholic simply identifies Lutherans who, as the reformers did, view themselves as part of the Church Catholic, yet not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Of course this is a misappropriation of the term. To be “Evangelical” means to embrace the “Good News” (the literal meaning of the term) of Jesus Christ. Catholics are evangelical by that definition.

This indeed applies to both Lutherans and Catholics.

Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Jon,

Remember that the OP is asking about the term “Evangelical” as it is used in the United States popular media. “Evangelical” is also a term used by Lutherans to describe themselves (e.g. “Evangelical Catholic”) but that is NOT the usage that the OP was inquiring about.

In the US popular media, the term “Evangelical” is used in contrast to mainline Protestant and Lutherans, whether confessional or evangelical, are deemed to fall into the latter category.

According to the JDDJ, the Lutheran view is not so erroneous as you imply.

Catholics and Lutherans define “faith” differently. For Lutherans, as for Evangelicals, “faith” is a human action that results in justification, but in the Catholic view it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that comes with sanctifying grace. It is grace and not faith that brings about justification. Per the JDDJ:

26.According to Lutheran understanding, God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide). In faith they place their trust wholly in their Creator and Redeemer and thus live in communion with him. God himself effects faith as he brings forth such trust by his creative word. Because God’s act is a new creation, it affects all dimensions of the person and leads to a life in hope and love. In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist. Thereby the basis is indicated from which the renewal of life proceeds, for it comes forth from the love of God imparted to the person in justification. Justification and renewal are joined in Christ, who is present in faith.

27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].

Therefore “grace alone by faith alone” is a contradiction. Grace is free, and thus it cannot be premised on a human action.

This is not accurate, as Lutherans rely on the Confessions as the true reflection of scripture, not individual interpretation.

Again, the OP is not about the term as it is used by Lutherans.

Not exactly true, either. I am perfectly fine with the name “Lutheran”. The probelm with the term protestant is two-fold: 1) it is used in a way that is outside its original usage, and 2) it groups various communions in a way that implies, erroneously, that they once were a singular communion (ie. Calvinists broke away from Lutheranism, etc).

That is exactly the objection to the term “Protestant” that is made by Evangelicals. Even though they borrowed ideas from Lutherans they want nothing to do with the name because that would imply giving honor or authority to Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, the contributors to the Book of Concord, etc.

As for point (2) remember that all non-Catholic Christians broke away from the Catholic Church, whether directly or by breaking with a communion that had already done so. All such communions do share a historical connection to the Catholic Church. The term “Protestant” is therefore not erroneous in that sense.

 

[JonNC]

=Cat Herder;8561072]Jon,

Remember that the OP is asking about the term “Evangelical” as it is used in the popular media. “Evangelical” is also a term used by Lutherans to describe themselves (e.g. “Evangelical Catholic”) but that is NOT the usage that the OP was inquiring about.

Then, Cat, I misread the OP, which says: *Was just in a class where we discussed how there is no one uniform definition for this, and it is commonly used in the press without really knowing what it means. What would you say “Evangelical” means and is it possible to be an Evangelical Catholic? *

In the US popular media, the term “Evangelical” is used in contrast to mainline Protestant and Lutherans, whether confessional or evangelical, are deemed to fall into the latter category.

Agreed.

Catholics and Lutherans define “faith” differently. For Lutherans, as for Evangelicals, “faith” is a human action that results in justification, but in the Catholic view it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that comes with sanctifying grace. It is grace and not faith that brings about justification. Per the JDDJ:

26.According to Lutheran understanding, God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide). In faith they place their trust wholly in their Creator and Redeemer and thus live in communion with him. God himself effects faith as he brings forth such trust by his creative word. Because God’s act is a new creation, it affects all dimensions of the person and leads to a life in hope and love. In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist. Thereby the basis is indicated from which the renewal of life proceeds, for it comes forth from the love of God imparted to the person in justification. Justification and renewal are joined in Christ, who is present in faith.

27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].

Therefore “grace alone by faith alone” is a contradiction. Grace is free, and thus it cannot be premised on a human action.

With due respect, Cat, you misinterpret the Lutheran view. When we say it is by grace alone through faith, we are saying that faith itself is a gift of grace, and not of ourselves. We have no way of coming to faith other than by grace.

That is exactly the objection to the term “Protestant” that is made by Evangelicals. Even though they borrowed ideas from Lutherans they want nothing to do with the name because that would imply giving honor or authority to Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, the contributors to the Book of Concord, etc.

And I always thought they rejected Lutheranism because they disagree with us, not just regarding sola fide, but also on a vast array of other doctrines. What they borrowed, they in fact have often changed.

All this said, to the OP, if I misunderstood the nature of the post, my apologies for the nature of my response.

Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

With due respect, Cat, you misinterpret the Lutheran view. When we say it is by grace alone through faith, we are saying that faith itself is a gift of grace, and not of ourselves. We have no way of coming to faith other than by grace.

The problem is that word “alone” after “faith.” It causes a paradox.

Let’s say that I am at home, and go to the grocery store through the interstate. I do not start at the grocery store, so I have to go on the interstate to get to the grocery store. It would be wrong to say that I go from home to the grocery store and then on the interstate because that leaves out the initial trip on the interstate from home to the store. But if the Lutheran position is that the only way to get grace is through faith, then that is exactly what happens; the grocery store (faith) precedes the interstate (grace), or to put it another way, you magically teleport from home to the grocery store and then take the interstate. This only works if your car is a time-traveling DeLorean.

So I think that Lutheranism, as with Protestantism in general, has it backwards. Grace, not faith, comes first, and so it is not “grace alone through faith alone” but “(a living and working) faith alone through grace alone,” as the JDDJ says, but even that is too imprecise because plenty of people like children who die below the age of reason are saved by grace alone without faith of any kind. And that’s another issue with the Lutheran/Protestant “faith alone,” as if faith is the only way to get grace, then they have no way of being saved. Faith therefore comes after initial justification, and it relates to justification insofar as the lack of it is a sin which, if mortal, can disqualify from salvation (see Heb. 10:26-29).

And I always thought they rejected Lutheranism because they disagree with us, not just regarding sola fide, but also on a vast array of other doctrines. What they borrowed, they in fact have often changed.

Yes, they have, in part by importing a lot of Calvinism. But there’s no way to go into all that in a single CAF post.

All this said, to the OP, if I misunderstood the nature of the post, my apologies for the nature of my response.

Well, one of us misread it and since I now see the OP is asking a personal question, it was probably me. Sorry.

 

[saribee]

All this said, to the OP, if I misunderstood the nature of the post, my apologies for the nature of my response.

Jon

Sorry to be so unclear. My understanding is that “Evangelical” as used in the media does NOT mean “Protestant” necessarily. The media tends to throw around the E word to describe anyone who is not Catholic or is involved with any kind of modern worship service. Since many reporters do not know much about religion, they are using a word that they don’t have a definition for. There have been several definitions of evangelical mentioned on this thread, like “one who evangelizes.” But those are not the kind of definitions the press seems to use. I am asking: What characteristics/beliefs do you think a person should have in order to be considered an evangelical as identified by the current media?

 

[JonNC]

Sorry to be so unclear. My understanding is that “Evangelical” as used in the media does NOT mean “Protestant” necessarily. The media tends to throw around the E word to describe anyone who is not Catholic or is involved with any kind of modern worship service. Since many reporters do not know much about religion, they are using a word that they don’t have a definition for. There have been several definitions of evangelical mentioned on this thread, like “one who evangelizes.” But those are not the kind of definitions the press seems to use. I am asking: What characteristics/beliefs do you think a person should have in order to be considered an evangelical as identified by the current media?

Gottcha, and again I apologize for misunderstanding.

Perhaps someone who is either a part of that of American Christianity can respond to your thread.

To my friend Cat, I’m sure a sola fide thread will pop up in the near future.

Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Gottcha, and again I apologize for misunderstanding.

Perhaps someone who is either a part of that of American Christianity can respond to your thread.

I was starting to get sure that I was the one who had misunderstood!

Perhaps someone who is either a part of that of American Christianity can respond to your thread.

This sub forum is frequented by many Evangelicals so I’m sure that will happen soon.

To my friend Cat, I’m sure a sola fide thread will pop up in the near future.

Jon

Sounds good to me. But as a result of our discussion the OP can see the kind of difference about how exactly one responds to the Good News as between Protestants, Lutherans and Catholics.

 

[waxwing]

Although I grant your my definition may not correct, be it within academic, theological circles but here goes.

When I think of a Evangelical I think of one who attends a ND, Baptist, Pentecostal Church, or any Church that the songs words are listed on the overhead projector and the tune is more than likely “pop” in nature. The pastor is well spoken, dresses casually, peppers his sermons with self help tips, humorous stories, some serious stories and tries to tie it within a Biblical Theme of the sermon. It is located in a nondescript building in the suburbs. It (members) tends to buy into the “right wing” perspective on the world. Its middle to upper middle class. If its large enough(which many are) it probably will have many functions or groups that meet through out the week. By all appearances rejects anything resembling tradition. Think I’ll stop there but those are the things that spring to mind when I hear this term. Some of their practices I am fond of, namely the concept of small groups that meet regularly. Others practices I have to roll my eyes and remind myself they are brothers and sisters in Christ and try to look at the big picture.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

I recently read the book Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity… And Why it Matters., by David Kinneman and Gabe Lyons. It is a challenging look at how various movements in the Christian church have affected the way we are seen by larger society. It has a very liberal slant toward Christianity, but has some solid research on public opinions. Here is their definition of “Evangelical:”

1. They made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important today.
2. They will go to heaven because they have confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.
3. Their faith is very important to their life today.
4. They believe they have a responsibility to share their beliefs with non-Christians.
5. They believes in the existence of Satan.
6. They believe that eternal salvation is only available through grace, not works.
7. They believe that Jesus lived a sinless life of earth.
8. They assert that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches.
9. Finally, God is the all-powerful, all-knowing perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today.

This is a combining of the definitions of “Born-again Christians” and “Evangelicals” found on page 249.

 

[andrewstx]

I would personally define an Evangelical as a Protestant who chiefly defines his faith by “getting saved”.

Evangelical worship is basically a continual “revival meeting” where every service concludes with an “invitation” or altar call, just in case one person present has not gotten saved or “accepted Jesus as one’s personal Saviour”.

Baptism or any of the other sacraments has nothing to do with being saved, the sacraments, two only are regarded as symbolic only.

Many Evangelicals dispence with the word sacrament completely, substituting the word ordinance.

I am speaking of the Evangelicals in the sense of commonly understood English.

 

[CopticChristian]

Was just in a class where we discussed how there is no one uniform definition for this, and it is commonly used in the press without really knowing what it means. What would you say “Evangelical” means and is it possible to be an Evangelical Catholic?

Christian according to some Protestant equates to other than Catholic. It is as if the notion of being Catholic is not Christian and we know different. Sometimes we say Catholic Christian and sometimes we know that saying Catholic is enough.

To be an Evangelical is like saying that you have taken the action of what it is to be Catholic and designated as something that is isolated and separate and I offer that as a Catholic we are evangelical. I dare say many of the people on this post, Joe, Beloved Mary…and others whose name I cannot recall are evangelical by their actions…they are Catholic. To be Catholic is Christian. To be Catholic is to be Evangelical.

It is the Protestant thing of stealing “christian” and self designating it as they own it. It is no different to take something that we do and taking “evangelical” as they own it…when in fact to be Catholic is to be Christian is to be Evangelical and more.

In Christianity, the Gospel, good news, Evangealion, or Evangelium (from Koine Greek euangélion — also translated as “gospel”, “glad tidings” and variants) is the message of Jesus, the Christ (the Messiah), specifically the coming Kingdom of God, his atoning death on the cross and resurrection, the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost as “helper” (paraclete), and the resulting promise and hope of salvation for the faithful.

So, are you a Catholic born again, Evangelical , Charitable, Hopeful, Faith, filled humble Christian…or is Catholic enough:thumbsup:

 

[ltwin]

The older usage of “Evangelical” applied to Lutherans. In the USA, it is for more common for the term “Evangelical” to refer to theologically conservative Protestants who distinguish themselves from both (liberal) Mainline Protestants and Protestant Fundamentalism. In the media, Evangelicals will sometimes be labeled “Christian Fundamentalist.” This is incorrect. The Fundamentalists are much more isolationist and insular than Evangelicals.

For the popular USA definition Here is the Statement of Faith for the National Association of Evangelicals:

Statement of Faith

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.

We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.

We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.

We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is their “What Is An Evangelical?” page:

What is an Evangelical?

Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

The term “evangelical” comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the “gospel.” Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the “good news” of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.

We are a vibrant and diverse group, including believers found in many churches, denominations and nations. Our community brings together Reformed, Holiness, Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic and other traditions. Our core theological convictions provide unity in the midst of our diversity. The NAE Statement of Faith offers a standard for these evangelical convictions.

Historian David Bebbington also provides a helpful summary of evangelical distinctives, identifying four primary characteristics of evangelicalism:

*Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be transformed through a “born-again” experience and a life long process of following Jesus.
*Activism: the expression and demonstration of the gospel in missionary and social reform efforts
*Biblicism: a high regard for and obedience to the Bible as the ultimate authority
*Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as making possible the redemption of humanity

These distinctives and theological convictions define us, not political, social, or cultural trends. In fact, many evangelicals rarely use the term “evangelical” to describe themselves, focusing simply on the core convictions of the triune God, the Bible, faith, Jesus, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship.

It might also help to read the Evangelical Manifesto.

 

[CopticChristian]

The older usage of “Evangelical” applied to Lutherans. In the USA, it is for more common for the term “Evangelical” to refer to theologically conservative Protestants who distinguish themselves from both (liberal) Mainline Protestants and Protestant Fundamentalism. In the media, Evangelicals will sometimes be labeled “Christian Fundamentalist.” This is incorrect. The Fundamentalists are much more isolationist and insular than Evangelicals.

For the popular USA definition Here is the Statement of Faith for the National Association of Evangelicals:

Here is their “What Is An Evangelical?” page:

It might also help to read the Evangelical Manifesto.

Was there not an ecyclical on Modernism? I believe in that Old Time Religion, good enough for mother, good enough for father, good enough for Saul/Paul and Jesus and good enough for me…

youtube.com/watch?v=gDCiqWcV7NY&feature=related

Catholic for 2000 years and the so called Evangelicals

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God, yup been doin that for 2000 years…

We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe we had a Council that argued over that one.

We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory. Bunch of counsels on the nature of Christ…

We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. Yup through Baptism…

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. Yup got that one tooo

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation. Part of the Nicean Creed…yup

We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ. We call that the Church and sure nuff…we are Evangelicals…been doin it long time… now

Sounds Catholic To me:thumbsup:

 

[ltwin]

Was there not an ecyclical on Modernism? I believe in that Old Time Religion, good enough for mother, good enough for father, good enough for Saul/Paul and Jesus and good enough for me…

youtube.com/watch?v=gDCiqWcV7NY&feature=related

Catholic for 2000 years and the so called Evangelicals

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God, yup been doin that for 2000 years…

We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe we had a Council that argued over that one.

We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory. Bunch of counsels on the nature of Christ…

We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. Yup through Baptism…

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. Yup got that one tooo

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation. Part of the Nicean Creed…yup

We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ. We call that the Church and sure nuff…we are Evangelicals…been doin it long time… now

Sounds Catholic To me:thumbsup:

Well, since the NAE is made up of a variety of different denominations, it makes since that its Statement of Faith would be as “merely Christian” as possible. I think the much more important description of evangelicals is the following:

*Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be transformed through a “born-again” experience and a life long process of following Jesus.
*Activism: the expression and demonstration of the gospel in missionary and social reform efforts
*Biblicism: a high regard for and obedience to the Bible as the ultimate authority
*Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as making possible the redemption of humanity

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, since the NAE is made up of a variety of different denominations, it makes since that its Statement of Faith would be as “merely Christian” as possible. I think the much more important description of evangelicals is the following:

*Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be transformed through a “born-again” experience and a life long process of following Jesus. Yup being Baptized is important. Have you seen all those missions in Calfornia and the number of converts and Churches as a result of that.

*Activism: the expression and demonstration of the gospel in missionary and social reform efforts. Catholic Charities…check out the website…catholiccharitiesusa.org/

*Biblicism/Protestanism: a high regard for and obedience to the Bible as the ultimate authority, combined with the Traditions of the Church and Magesterium can do wonders.

*Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as making possible the redemption of humanity, been doing that for 2000 years…

Catholic:thumbsup: