What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SSTeacher
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think a Protestant answer would probably be that works are demonstrations of a lively faith but it is not the works of supererogation that save the Christian. The works are obviously evidence of sanctification in the life of the believer, a good and laudable thing. A person with faith usually demonstrates a lively faith and growing relationship with Christ but it is not the works that save but the atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross who took the place of the sinner as the Law was nailed to the Cross.

Also, I don’t know why you’re calling Protestants “protestors” and suddenly coming to the conclusion that Protestants haven’t read James? What leads you to that assumption. The Protestants I know in here and have come to really respect know the New Testament better than myself. They know James but came to a different conclusion than you I would venture to say, respectfully.

And also why are you mentioning tearing out books of the Bible? What has that to do with indulgences? Seems off-topic?

To answer your question about what good are works, I’d say as I stated earlier that the Protestant view is that they are evidence or the eventual result of justification. Protestants view justification as the first fruits, sanctification as the result of said justification. Catholics believe sanctification leads to justification. The two are quite different. So, from the Protestant viewpoint, works are not what saves but are the fingerprints of a believer’s walk with Christ. Any Protestants can correct me if I’m wrong in my statement.
Since this thread is such a romp through the woods, I have to ask my protesting friends if they have ever read the epistle of James in the New Testament?

They’re foaming at the mouth, again, about a “works” gospel, but my Bible says that faith without words IS DEAD.

DEAD? DEADLY? Got it?

As usual, the protestors jump the train off the tracks because they haven’t read that, if anything, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

“Works” must be important for some reason. I wonder what it is? NOT so that any man can boast, that’s for certain, for the NT says that, too.

OK, I’ll draw a line in the sand, too, and ask anybody what are good works FOR? if anything? MUST BE BIG, if it’s in the NT? NO? You’ve got 12 to 14 hours for that, too.

AGAIN, I ask that lifelong question of mine, WHICH PAGES OF THE BIBLE AM I SUPPOSED TO TEAR OUT, NOW? AND WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO TELL ME TO DO IT?
 
I haven’t seen anyone claim that works are not important, and I haven’t even seen much argument for the particularly Protestant understanding. More attempts to make sense of the theory of indulgences, which is clearly related but not the same.

And in any case, the Orthodox also explicitly believe in faith and works, and reject indulgences. So it seems to me to blame the rejection of indulgences on a Protestant understanding of works is insufficient.

In any case, why make ad hominem arguments about Protestants? The posters in this thread are largely pretty orthodox Christians, and would likely be very interested in an explanation of indulgences that seemed cogent.
 
Well before I said my prayers and went to bed, I reviewed my catechism.

I have gone through the posts here, so someone needs to point out the economic sounding fund for indulgences…

Please give me the post.

Guerny, thanks for explaining your whereabouts…I am out of the loop when it comes to literature these days…good description…

Essentially, the world today has lost the sense of sin. Oh we can do whatever, then say we are sorry, and move on…I don’t think God is to be taken casually. But the other problem is besides losing the sense of sin, our whole manner to God in modern times is one that there is no consequence.

Yet the signs are all around us saying our time is very short and we do not know the day or hour…are we the foolish virgins who did not have the oil in their lamps???

The Lord is our treasure…how seriously do we draw on all His benefits of His Body and Blood, daily Mass available to us, the sacrament of confession…this is an issue for any Catholic, let alone those who do not believe in the sacraments.

I would like to go back to phrases we all know that pertain to Christ in the gospels. The Lord says those who have found the kingdom have found a treasure, to bury it, and when it is the time to come back and draw on it. That is the life of Christ we all draw on.

One treasure is the Mass…it is the source of the physical presence of Christ coming to the world. The Mass is the greatest power of goodness on earth. The Mass is the means that brings Christ, physically, spiritually, healing, teaching more present today than He was 2000 years ago. We have Jesus more today than ever before…the Mass is said every hour of the day all around the world. We will not realize how much good the Mass brings until it is wiped out from the face of the earth…as Revelations say, the Daily Sacrifice will some day cease.

We sin, we go to confession, but many times we are repeat offenders when it comes to lack of charity with those who live with us every day, or the anger we feel towards others with all the daily bad news and slander and malice. It is hard to be good in this world. Taking up one’s cross, doing daily penance, drawing on the Lord’s strength to be charitable and live by His supernatural power and not your own is a continual struggle. Purgatory is a place of purification to remove all inclination to sin.

If I make a good confession, am truly sorry for such and such sin, and never sin again, there is no remission, and an indulgence as no affect. But irregardless, the words of the Savior are quite sobering…

‘do penance…unless you likewise shall perish’. How many people actually do penance every day?..for the remission of sins…remission is the consequences of sin…

‘The road to hell is wide and easy…many are called but few are chosen…those who eat…shall have eternal life…’ These are severe words of consequences of our behaviors.

Indulgences are some of the oil we have in our lamps to draw on…and they involve sacrifice…for the sins we continue to commit out of lack of will, laziness, not doing penance and self denial…it is a spiritual oil that has no correlation to the symbol of money.

To request an indulgence is to draw on the depths of the mystery of the sacramental church to request a benefit, and drawing on one’s own private funds of necessity to give up in faith that the sacred mystery of the Mass and all the graces therein will answer and be drawn and incorporated into the soul that requests such an indulgence.

If I petition for an indulgence, it is a sacrifice for me…we live on such a tight budget…but I am drawing on the work of my hands…as we recall at the offertory at Mass…and offer it to God in return to be incorporated more deeply into the physical and spiritual life of Jesus I receive at communion.

If I have a special need or experience a dryness or lack of fervor, or I have an errant child or a sick relative, or a parent or in-law I would like to extend Christ’s grace to that person through a Mass stipend that is about $5.

Where is the beef?? I went through several pages of the Catechism on indulgences and I saw not one single description of it being some sort of monetary fund…People would be surprised where stipend money goes…to pretty basic necessities and charity in your typical parish. Yesterday I got a list where all our donations go while we are trying to pay off our church and get a new faith formation center…

We talked a little about the Christian fundamentalists in our country…the teacher responded that in those regions, the Catholic Church has responded to criticisms by its building of health and education centers treating everyone with great respect and dignity.

Don’t worry too much about Catholic money, folks…the Lord said He would take care of all of us.
 
In any case, why make ad hominem arguments about Protestants? The posters in this thread are largely pretty orthodox Christians, and would likely be very interested in an explanation of indulgences that seemed cogent.
Because it’s easier for them to throw ad hominem statements out that have no relationship to the discussion than it is to respond to a serious exegesis of relevant passages that form a cohesive, biblical theology? 🙂
 
Because it’s easier for them to throw ad hominem statements out that have no relationship to the discussion than it is to respond to a serious exegesis of relevant passages that form a cohesive, biblical theology? 🙂
I’m happy with an explanation that isn’t all that Biblical, as long as it actually makes sense with the rest of Christianity, or of Catholicism. I can make neither heads nor tails of indulgences in a Christian context.
 
Hi Kathleen, nice post. I am already sure you’re a devout, sincere, Christ-filled Catholic. God bless you. Here is the language I think you might be missing when you read the catechism, however, that reflects a banking–withdrawl and deficit type of lingo that bothers the Protestants and Orthodox in this discussion. Go to your catechism, section 1476 It reads thus:

We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted which Christ’s merits have before God. …

and you continue to the part that I think is most troubling to opponents of indulgences, section 1477 that states:

***This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation *and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body. **

Section 1478 continues the line of thinking…

…[the Church] intervenes in favor of the individual Christians and opens for them the Treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins.

The idea that there is MORE than enough “merit” to save us and that somehow this merit is additive, that is, the saints and Mary added to Christ’s salvific work, is troubling to many Protestants and Orthodox in that it had no basis in Scripture and tradition until the Middle Ages comes along. We see no language anywhere that says salvation is like points, or money, or something quantitative that can be accumulated and even added to with others. The salvation Christ won on the Cross is sublime, sufficient, and nothing human beings can do will somehow add to it, increase it, or make the account fatter.

It is ideas like these that really launched the Protestant Reformation and further alienated Orthodoxy as well. The fact this teaching still is in the catechism and Catholic dogma makes stumbling blocks in ecumenism and mutual agreement toward a common mission I think…
Well before I said my prayers and went to bed, I reviewed my catechism.

I have gone through the posts here, so someone needs to point out the economic sounding fund for indulgences…

Please give me the post.

Guerny, thanks for explaining your whereabouts…I am out of the loop when it comes to literature these days…good description…

Where is the beef?? I went through several pages of the Catechism on indulgences and I saw not one single description of it being some sort of monetary fund…People would be surprised where stipend money goes…to pretty basic necessities and charity in your typical parish. Yesterday I got a list where all our donations go while we are trying to pay off our church and get a new faith formation center…

We talked a little about the Christian fundamentalists in our country…the teacher responded that in those regions, the Catholic Church has responded to criticisms by its building of health and education centers treating everyone with great respect and dignity.

Don’t worry too much about Catholic money, folks…the Lord said He would take care of all of us.
 
The idea that there is MORE than enough “merit” to save us and that somehow this merit is additive, that is, the saints and Mary added to Christ’s salvific work, is troubling to many Protestants and Orthodox in that it had no basis in Scripture and tradition until the Middle Ages comes along. We see no language anywhere that says salvation is like points, or money, or something quantitative that can be accumulated and even added to with others. The salvation Christ won on the Cross is sublime, sufficient, and nothing human beings can do will somehow add to it, increase it, or make the account fatter.
I find that it seems to be distinctly in opposition to much of what Paul, Augustine, and other said about our relationship to God. It is even more serious than being “new”, it seems subversive.
 
I regret that the entry in the Catholic encyclopedia doesn’t start from first principles on the matter of indulgences.

Memory itself serves me in this matter to state that at one time, if I understand correctly, when a penitent entered the sacrament of confession/reconciliation, there was a literal penance administered for the sins that were confessed.

So, that literal penance had a time duration to it, and an indulgence was an offset to that penance, in ordinary terms of days or years, for example. So, in the modern context, the expression of 300 days indulgence for x, y, or z, for example, is a reference to the earlier scheme of penances. It cannot and does not apply in literal terms to any period of purgation after death.

I don’t have a conceptual or historical understanding of indulgences that “touches bottom” on the idea. I accept them on the basis of an encouragement to pray or to perform spiritual good works. In the end, the judgment about the matter belongs to the Lord.

The concept of indulgences predates the period of modern publishing, so the written origins of this idea is locked away someplace. This thread runs into that intellectual brick wall.

Certainly the logical starting point is that there is a temporal punishment due to sins, much as our Savior had to suffer a real, temporal punishment of atonement. Much as in civil law, there is a temporal punishment for such-and-such a crime. An indulgence, therefore, corresponds to “time off for good behavior” – so to speak.

Now, where all this originated and is documented, I cannot say.

The protestors don’t deny all this, they simply say it’s instantaneous when somebody repents (I surmise). Now, I admit what I am about to say is a bit of a stretch, but anyway, this may be connected to what has been called “easy grace.” One just says “the sinner’s prayer” and BLINK it’s all gone. For Catholics, it’s not that easy.
 
Thanks, Gurney,

And I read those parts of the cathechism…about the word ‘treasury’, and my culture caused me to read it differently…I do not relate any attributes of the treasury of faith and merit to a worldly institution like the Federal Reserve Board. May be because it was my bedtime…but I read them totally different, and from an insider…

Here the context is mystical, and all the works so to speak are essence that drawn from the treasury of faith in Christ, the totality of Jesus—His life, words, teaching, his death, crucifixon, His Body and Blood that feed the Church, Who is through His life and forgiveness – found in the sacraments – our means of salvation.

I am trying to get into the habit every day to call on the Lord to make up for whatever I have done or not done during the day and that He stand in my place, that He is my atonement. That is personal practice. But I also need to make a public expression through my church.

So Jesus is still our means of salvation…but we are a church and it is comprised of other members…we are all members of the Body, as you baptized are, but it is more carnate as we also are physically part of Christ.

Our pastor said Jesus is more physically present today than He was 2,000 years ago…and by that, he also meant that Jesus is physically present in those around us who also receive the sacraments. This is the same for the Orthodox.

A Maronite priest told me their charism is contemplation, the Orthodox the great mysteries expressed in the liturgy, but the Latin rite is the one that makes the laws and regulations, has the universal mark of having to inculturate all regions and peoples and cultures and assimilate them. So for an Orthodox, the Latin may overstate things. That is how it goes. And there are alot of Catholics who do not participate in stipends and so forth.

(There is another indulgence gained…on a religious profession day…this can be done for secular professed…and other special feastdays…that we stay after Mass and pray one Our Father (Pater), one Hail Mary (Ave), and one Glory Be (Gloria) for the Holy Father and his intentions. And so alot of people do it because we know we are imperfect by the long run and pray for grace to lessen the purgation of purgatory – if our hearts are pure and love.)

About Mary…that is another one Protestants miss because they do not believe in the communion of saints. Mary’s constitution said ‘yes’ to the Lord at her conception, this dogma having taken 2,000 years to proclaim. So there is a truth not only found in Scripture, but as Christ promised, the Comforter Who would come after Him and teach us many things.

Tradition is the teachings of the Church not found in Scripture, but developed by Church followers who believe in Scripture. It is our response to living Scripture. And it is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and teacher Who continues to teach us about living the life of Christ.

I am especially consecrated to Mary through the Society of Mary…we experience Mary’s companionship, her being incarnated with ours, breathing and exhaling each breath we take, and always drawing us closer to intimacy with Jesus.

A Marist priest told us that Mary’s prayers were far greater than all the works of the Apostles combined, and all that of the angels. Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth…she is the Mother of All Grace…she is the one who gave Jesus His body and blood that we worship. We cannot ignore her. And she has been venerated and respected for being Christ’s mother all down through 2,000 years of history.

Because of her attributes, she is as a treasury, a treasury of grace…and I see that word not in a materialistic, phony way, but a spiritual treasure reflecting on the very words of Christ Himself…that the kingdom is like a treasure…you bury it and then come back to it to draw on it, and it is like pearls we do not throw away to be trampled upon.

There are so many stories all down through the ages of Holy Mary coming to help her children. We are the heel of Mary…the lowly ones who are marginalized from the world’s greed and power…again, another contradiction to people’s understanding of the word treasury.

I have shared some personal stories about Mary here at CAF. Don’t want to here.
But to equate money to the actual work of keeping our oil lamps filled for we know not the day…is something outside the reality of this mystery.

I did not use the catechism because people ignore it or misunderstand it. So I prayed last night to find a different way to explain. I went to Mass today and prayed for you all as well.

If indulgences were what people thought, not only would those who left did, but also everybody else.

To understand issues in the Latin church, it is almost like you have to experience Mary, the saints, the sacraments and sacred mysteries and have life experience in living them out.

I find it very strange and cold even that Protestants do not believe in the communion of saints. If I can ever go to heaven, I do not want to sit on a cloud and have it easy…I cannot forget people here, and hope to pray and do good for others just like many others living now would do.

Mary can do infinitely more for us. I cannot understand why the protestants and others in public can venerate and write about Rose Kennedy and others but see it wrong to write or acknowledge anything about Mary, Christ’s mother.
 
Yes, the indulgences are connected to the sacrament of Penance.

But I find that trying to explain indulgencees outside the Latin rite is most difficult indeed.

It is very definitely one deep in the culture of church…and the use of language, and the times preceding the Reformation carry not only remaining baggage, that I would tell someone entering the Church to put it on the back burner. In time understanding would come…or may be not.

My friend was a former Baptist. But she could not understand the assumption of Mary into heaven. I drew on my study on the walk of perfection from some of the saints…and put it into the way she thinks and talks. She then understood and said, ‘that is how Baptists believe!’ Mary lived perfection and followed Jesus.

I am hoping to teach a small class this summer on perfection using materials from St. Catherine of Siena who was a reformer.

She wrote ‘The Dialogues’ and spoke in some detail about Christ’s ministers…addressing some of the same problems the church is now facing again today…and the solutions are just about the same today.

Human nature never changes…it is so easy to backslide. With all that we are bombarded with every day, i try to make use of all the graces of the Church – note i don’t use ‘treasury’, but I don’t promote certain practices…mostly going to Mass more and praying the rosary and practicing self-denial are the most easily understood.
 
About Mary…that is another one Protestants miss because they do not believe in the communion of saints. Mary’s constitution said ‘yes’ to the Lord at her conception, this dogma having taken 2,000 years to proclaim. So there is a truth not only found in Scripture, but as Christ promised, the Comforter Who would come after Him and teach us many things.

Tradition is the teachings of the Church not found in Scripture, but developed by Church followers who believe in Scripture. It is our response to living Scripture. And it is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and teacher Who continues to teach us about living the life of Christ.

I am especially consecrated to Mary through the Society of Mary…we experience Mary’s companionship, her being incarnated with ours, breathing and exhaling each breath we take, and always drawing us closer to intimacy with Jesus.

A Marist priest told us that Mary’s prayers were far greater than all the works of the Apostles combined, and all that of the angels. Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth…she is the Mother of All Grace…she is the one who gave Jesus His body and blood that we worship. We cannot ignore her. And she has been venerated and respected for being Christ’s mother all down through 2,000 years of history.

Because of her attributes, she is as a treasury, a treasury of grace…and I see that word not in a materialistic, phony way, but a spiritual treasure reflecting on the very words of Christ Himself…that the kingdom is like a treasure…you bury it and then come back to it to draw on it, and it is like pearls we do not throw away to be trampled upon.

There are so many stories all down through the ages of Holy Mary coming to help her children. We are the heel of Mary…the lowly ones who are marginalized from the world’s greed and power…again, another contradiction to people’s understanding of the word treasury.

I have shared some personal stories about Mary here at CAF. Don’t want to here.
But to equate money to the actual work of keeping our oil lamps filled for we know not the day…is something outside the reality of this mystery.

I did not use the catechism because people ignore it or misunderstand it. So I prayed last night to find a different way to explain. I went to Mass today and prayed for you all as well.

If indulgences were what people thought, not only would those who left did, but also everybody else.

To understand issues in the Latin church, it is almost like you have to experience Mary, the saints, the sacraments and sacred mysteries and have life experience in living them out.

I find it very strange and cold even that Protestants do not believe in the communion of saints. If I can ever go to heaven, I do not want to sit on a cloud and have it easy…I cannot forget people here, and hope to pray and do good for others just like many others living now would do.

Mary can do infinitely more for us. I cannot understand why the protestants and others in public can venerate and write about Rose Kennedy and others but see it wrong to write or acknowledge anything about Mary, Christ’s mother.
Many Protestants do believe in the Communion of Saints, including Anglicans and Lutherans.

I see that the idea of the treasury of faith is important to you, and I don’t know that you are wrong. However, it does not really speak to the difficulties that are being discussed here about indulgences.

I would agree that the idea that all talk about Christs saving work is mysterious and so in some sense impenetrable. Language that using a legal or monetary way of speaking is indeed only a kind of approximation of something which is simply above human thinking. But the main objection people are having, as far I I can read these posts, is that the doctrine of indulgences is NOT understanding this as a way of talking about what is essentially mysterious - it is acting as if it is a literaly bank fund. And in addition, it seems to directly contradict certain principles about the atonement, for example, which is a real problem.

You mention that if the doctrine of indulgences is really as described here, there would be no Catholics left. I have my doubts, but so far, no one has given a better explanation. Most of your posts seem to be that indulgences are a comforting doctrine and we ought to trust the Church, but neither of those things are actually arguments for indulgences or especially for the possibility of works of supererogation.
 
The indulgences are making greater use of the sacraments…the sacraments are visible, concrete signs containing the presence of Christ.

So today I gave you examples…they are all about Christ. But it is very difficult for people outside the Latin rite to understand.

Essentially, having a Mass said for someone is the greatest gift you can give them. … If you believe in the Mass and what it is about.

Fr Jeremy Driscoll wrote a new book, ‘What the Mass Means’, and it is in use at our parish. He talks about what is mystery, sacred mysteries, the sacraments.

I think if more people could walk on faith so to speak to live more in sacramental mystery, there would be more conversions.

About Mary, we are beginning novenas all over the country to her…Mary of Prompt Succor for the people in the Gulf…Maria Maris Stella…Star of the Sea…

Before Christ’s death, Mary was Miriam. The Latin church changed her name to Maria…‘Full of Grace’…as the sea…

In contrast to what is happening right now in the Gulf of Mexico, I am recalling today an image from Scripture that symbolizes a moment that is revealing Mary…but in ways outside Catholicism would be impossible may be, to non-Catholics. I agree with the this event…that the small cloud like a hand that rose from the sea, drawing from the Book of Kings…Elijah waiting for rain to come to the dry land of Israel after it followed false prophets…a small cloud appeared above the sea like a small hand that rose and grew…and brought rain to Israel…

The small hand is Mary’s hand, the symbol the Carmelites use in alluding to the coming of Mary to the world besides Jesus…a small helping hand…that thousands of years later, Mary would offer her hand to St. Simon Stock giving him the Brown Scapular. St. Stimon Stock was part of the Little Brothers of Mary, the beginning Carmelites who fled the Holy Land in the 1200’s. St. Simon, St Francis of Assisi and St. Dominic all lived at the same time and met one another.

You can find out about the Brown Scapular on CAF…many Catholics wear it, including myself…it carries an indulgence…but one must try to be a Christian as Mary was and call on her protection…

This is the month of May, the month of Mary…the month of flowers…Last year we had our Mother’s Luncheon take on the theme of Mary’s garden…Last year it was Mary’s Flower Garden…each of us a flower of Mary, each table having a flower theme like a tulip table, or a rose table, and on top of the table was a topiary tree with a name of Mary…‘The Heart of Mary’ with a table of hearts and red flowers, ‘Mary, Seat of Wisdom’ in ivory and gold plating, ribbons, and ivory colored roses, Mary’s Tulips…with tulips…the place was so beautiful, so much grace…we sang to Mary, had a Mary coronation with our daughters, sang songs…

Yes, it is soo good to hear of the Lutherans and Anglicans and others recognizing Mary and the communion of saints…she helps us be better women, too. I hope this has helped a little bit about our hidden treasure, Mary.
 
I am a practicing Roman Catholic. I do not practice indulgences per say. My answers to your questions are as follows:

1 Yes they are in the Bible. It’s the Peter and the key thing.
2 No it does not.One must go to confession and communion prior to doing the indulgence.
3 Purgatory is inferred in the Bible many times. ie Maccabees praying for the dead parts.
4 What is a shylock? It sure doesn’ sound very nice.
5 Of course not! Catholics are saved by Grace. Indulgences are a Grace.

It is funny. People get so fixated on the indulgence stuff. Yes I know it was totally abused way back when and got the reformation a start. But the Church reformed herself and took care of all that. When I think of my confessing my sins I suppose I do indulgences without knowing I’ve done them. I go to confession, I go to communion, I talk to God. If it’s a girl thing, I’ll say something to Mary. I don’t expect anything in return from God. I just hope He hears my remorse and forgives me. I love my faith. “Works” just happen when you have faith. You put it into action. Faith can be a work. Catholicism to me is a complete religion. We have our traditions and our Bible. Traditions are very important when you look at the Bible. It makes things complete. The New Testament is part of our tradition.
 
Yes, I’m rambling on too much. Our oral tradition is the New Testament. Yes, the Church has many abuses. And we try to fix them. We are all human and do make huge mistakes. Sometimes it takes us too long to fix them. But they do eventually get fixed. Our Catholic Church has practiced what Jesus taught us unchanging for 2000 yrs. There will be a few Judas’s in the bunch, but basically we remain unchanged in our service of love to humankind and our God. Have a good week everyone!
 
I think those outside the faith think we are manipulating God and putting some monetary fund on paying our way into heaven when it is nothing of the sort.

I tried to explain it from experience. I do not believe in Jesus, we are saved. We are saved once we are in heaven. We do not realize how profound the break sin does in our relationship with God. The just man sins 7 times a day. And in modern world one gets the impression that faith is lukewarm.

As a Catholic, Tradition and Scripture are intertwined. You can’t separate the Bible from the people of the Church.

I was tired the other night when I read the posts…and when I took out the catechism, I read the same posts and didn’t see a banking system at all. I wear the Brown Scapular that has an indulgence…am I thinking it is going to be a free pass into heaven? I don’t think of it that way at all. The use of ‘treasury’ comes from the reference to the Pearl of Great Price, the kingdom of Christ.

We are exhorted to pray continuously every day, to use our time well, to not be selfish, to show we are followers of Christ to the world. That takes alot of thought. So I am not assured of my salvation in myself but in Christ. What the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. I have given examples of indulgences and they are not at all far out or feeding the coffers of the church. I got a hand out Saturday of where all our Sunday collections go and so much of it goes back into the public community – meaning non-Catholics, helping many in whatever condition they need.

We also talked about some regions in the USA that have been traditionally anti-Catholic. The speaker said that it is the Catholic Church that is one building schools and hospitals in those very same region to help those people…How much of that income is derived from $5 stipends? Most priests’ salary is about $200 a month. Their favorite gifts from parishioners is when people give them money to give to the poor. The clergy are already taken care of and many give them all sorts of gifts for their livelihood which they don’t need. They live quite simply.
 
On the Liturgy and Sacraments, there is another discussion on indulgences.

But yes, only most devout make use of them.
 
I don’t mean to offend you, but I was hoping to get an answer from someone who endorses the doctrine and doesn’t worship a sandwich topping. 🤷
Your original statement was:
Code:
  	 			What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?
There is nothing about limiting the discussion to Catholics.

And I think you misunderstand “Cheesian”.
 
I’m happy with an explanation that isn’t all that Biblical, as long as it actually makes sense with the rest of Christianity, or of Catholicism. I can make neither heads nor tails of indulgences in a Christian context.
Two brothers, Charlie and Ben, are playing baseball in the back yard. Ben winds up and throws a perfect strike to Charlie. Charlie hits the ball with his bat and it’s a long ball. The ball travels to the neighbor’s house and breaks the big window of Mr. Johnson’s house. The boys run for it because they are afraid. Later the boys feel remorse and decide to confess what they have done to Mr. Johnson. After Charlie and Ben apologize for what they had done, Mr. Johnson accepts their apology.

The boys breathe a big sigh of relief. Mr. Johnson then asks the boys how they plan to take care of the broken window. The boys have a puzzled look on their face as they thought Mr. Johnson had just forgiven them. Mr. Johnson then explains to the boys that he is no longer angry with them and is happy to see that the boys regret what they did and were sorry for their actions. But the fact remains that the window is still broken. The boys decide they will pay for the window. The cost to replace the window is $1000.

The boys go home and try to figure out how they could possibly pay for a window so expensive. They explain their plight with their mother of their inability to pay off the debt on their own. Their mother suggests the boys mow the lawns around the neighborhood to help pay for the window. The boys agree to do this. Their mother, taking pity on them, decides to help them pay for what they lack.

The moral of the story: The boys needed to help repair the damage, not because they could sufficiently repair it themselves, but because they needed to learn the lesson of needing to take responsibility for their actions. Without their effort - as insufficient as it was - they would not have learned that their actions have consequences. Had the mother just paid the entire cost of the window with the boys doing nothing towards it’s repair, they would not have learned anything worthwhile. They would have learned that if they break something, all they would need to do is run home to their mom so she could pay for it instead of them.
 
40.png
Stylteralmaldo:
Styl, I think the story that you described does adequately explain what the Catholic thinking on justification and indulgences is. The story is Law, to use Lutheran language. However, with your permission, I would like to reword the story along the lines of Protestant thinking and how we (I believe biblically) understand the Gospel, and how it affects our lives in this world as well as human responsibility, and hence why we reject indulgences.

Two brothers, Charlie and Ben, are playing baseball in the back yard. Ben winds up and throws a perfect strike to Charlie. Charlie hits the ball with his bat and it’s a long ball. The ball travels to the neighbor’s house and breaks the big window of Mr. Johnson. The window that was broken, they knew, was not just an ordinary window. It was priceless, an antique, even. No amount of money they could raise would replace it. The boys run for it because they are afraid. Although they feel a deep sense of remorse at having broken the window, they do not confess their deeds to Mr. Johnson, afraid of what the consequences of their actions will be. Instead, they determine to cover it up by spending their time doing things to make-up for their behavior. They reason that even if they can’t replace the window, they can do enough good things to outweigh it. They resolve to mow Mr. Johnson’s lawn, wash his car, and do chores around the house. Heck, with all of that effort, he wouldn’t possibly suspect they had done anything wrong! All of this, of course, does nothing to fix the broken window.

The next day, Mr. Johnson walks out to the sidewalk and sees the two boys walking down the street and calls them over in a loud voice. Terrified at the sound, the boys put their heads down, murmur a few choice words under their breath, and shuffle slowly towards Mr. Johnson.

They approach him, voices trembling, and say “Yes, sir?” Mr. Johnson kneels down to the level of the two boys and puts a big smile on his face. “How do you like my new window?” The boys look up at him quickly, wondering what in the world he is talking about. They look over to where the window they had broken was and see not a broken window, but a brand new one, perfectly restored, without a hint of a scratch on it! Stunned in disbelief at what had just yesterday been a smashed antique, all they can manage to utter is a “but, but…” Mr. Johnson’s smile grows even bigger. "I know what happened, boys. You see, I had been watching you playing baseball outside. I knew that what you had done was going to happen. I may be an older man, but I sure aint clueless! That window was very important to me. It’s been in my family for dozens of generations. You had every right to run away. It would have been perfectly okay for me to walk over to your house and demand that you and your family repay me for the damages that you had done.

“But, you see, because I knew what you were going to do and what the consequences would be, I planned ahead. Have you ever met my son?” The boys shook their heads quickly, their minds still swimming in shock. “Well, my son that lives with me, he agreed that when the window was broken, he would pay the full damages. I won’t even begin to mention to you how much that cost. But, so that you get an idea, it cost him everything he owned. I love my son, let me tell you, and he loves me just as much. Although it caused immense pain to watch him give up everything he had worked so hard to achieve in his life to make up for your actions, he was only happy to do it, and I was only happy to accept. All of this was arranged before you ever even broke the window. And so…my window is good as new!”

The boys could only a give a murmur, “But…but…but why!?” Mr. Johnson smiled “Because of the goodness of my heart, boys, all because of that.”

The boys put their heads down again, their eyes welling with tears, and could only whisper “I know we’ve done wrong Mr. Johnson, we broke your window. What can we ever do to make it up to you and to your son?” Mr. Johnson’s brow furrowed. "There is nothing to repay. There’s nothing that you owe me. Everything is back to the way that it was and the way it should be. We are friends now, the both of you, and your family as well. I can’t recall ever having talked to either of you before. Over time, we’ll get to know each other much better, I think!

Mr. Johnson stood up, looking down at the two faces that were now beaming with relief, happiness, and joy at the unbelievable generosity they were just shown. “Now that that is all settled and done with…Look at all the work that needs to be done in this neighborhood!” Mr Johnson looked back and forth over the other houses on the street. “That house over there hasn’t had its lawn mowed, in gosh, ages! And that one, look at that car in the driveway. I bet there’s two years of grime on that thing! None of these people seem to be able to take care of their houses very well, and they can’t afford to fix them up much, it seems.”

The boys looked at Mr. Johnson and then at each other and, filled with the joy and peace that all their schemes to repay Mr. Johnson could never bring them, shouted at the top of their lungs, “Here we are! We’ll go and tell those neighbors right away that everything we planned to do to repay you for the window, we’ll now do for them!”

Mr. Johnson nodded, “Very well boys. When you’re finished with all of your hard work, invite the neighbors to my house later for dinner. All of you can come over for a feast that my son and I have prepared for all of you.”

(No analogy, of course, is perfect.)
 
What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?

a) That it isn’t in the Bible?
b) That it renders confession of sins pointless?
c) That it assumes there’s a place called purgatory?
d) That it portrays God as some sort of celestial Shylock?
e) That it effectively turned Western Christianity into a religion of works?
f) Other?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
I am a practicing Roman Catholic. I do not practice indulgences per say. My answers to your questions are as follows:

1 Yes they are in the Bible. It’s the Peter and the key thing.
Which particular Peter and the key thing did you have in mind?
2 No it does not.One must go to confession and communion prior to doing the indulgence.
That’s why I registered the objection – one must go to confession in order to earn the Indulgence.
3 Purgatory is inferred in the Bible many times. ie Maccabees praying for the dead parts.
Would you consider it unreasonable for a Non–Catholic to suggest that it’s dangerous to base a doctrine upon an inference or inferences?
4 What is a shylock? It sure doesn’ sound very nice.
Shylock, a fictional character in a play by the Bard, is a heartless moneylender who sets a bond of a “pound of flesh.” The name Shylock is commonly associated with mean–spirited vengeful litigation.
5 Of course not! Catholics are saved by Grace. Indulgences are a Grace.
Indulgences carry certain requirements. One is required to fulfill specific conditions in order to earn an Indulgence. For something to be earned, work must first be done. Clearly, then, Indulgences are not gratuitous. And that’s why many Non–Catholics have difficulty seeing Indulgences as coming under the category of grace. Would you agree that Non–Catholics who think along these lines are being reasonable and logical in their analysis?
It is funny. People get so fixated on the indulgence stuff. Yes I know it was totally abused way back when and got the reformation a start. But the Church reformed herself and took care of all that. When I think of my confessing my sins I suppose I do indulgences without knowing I’ve done them. I go to confession, I go to communion, I talk to God. If it’s a girl thing, I’ll say something to Mary. I don’t expect anything in return from God. I just hope He hears my remorse and forgives me. I love my faith. “Works” just happen when you have faith. You put it into action. Faith can be a work. Catholicism to me is a complete religion. We have our traditions and our Bible. Traditions are very important when you look at the Bible. It makes things complete. The New Testament is part of our tradition.
Thank you for your contribution. 🙂

Appreciatively,
Mick
👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top