What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?

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Oh Guerney…

You guys were on a roll regarding Entertainment Tonight…Girls just want to have fun, too, you know…
 
this is not only un-Scriptural
That the doctrine of Indulgences is contained indirectly and implicitly in the Sacred Scriptures is almost self-evident. Let it be borne in mind what the general idea of an indulgence is. It has been said above that an indulgence is the remission of a temporal debt, made by God to a sinner, in consideration of the satisfactory merits of His Divine Son and of His saints. This is the same as to say, that God in His Mercy is willing to overlook a man’s debt, on the consideration that other men, have sufficiently atoned for that debt.
Now, of this benign acceptance of other person’s satisfaction on the part of God, we have no lack of proofs in Holy Scripture. When he had declared to His faithful servant Abraham that he would spare the unholy city of Sodom, if only ten just men were found therein; when Moses’s earnest request He delayed the punishment which He had decreed to inflict on the children of Israel, on account of their sin of idolatry—what were these, but proofs that God is willing to forgive man his debt of temporal punishment, in consideration of the satisfaction of others?
But we do not even need such proofs, to show that God readily accepts the satisfactions of some, as a compensation for the sins of others. For if, on account of the sin of one person only, He has sometimes punished whole kingdoms, as when He struck the Jewish nation for David’s sin in numbering his people, how can we doubt that He “whose tender mercies are above all His works” (Ps 119:41), who is much more prone to forgive than to punish, will overlook, in the dispensation of His justice, the infinite satisfactions of His beloved Son, and those of His elect, who are so dear to Him?
This cannot be. For is God is a severe Judge, He is equally clothed with the attributes of a tender Father; and if He has threatened “to visit the iniquities of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation” (Deut 5:9), He has no less pledged Himself to not leave unrewarded even the smallest good work, were it only the giving of a cup of cold water in his name (Mark 9:40).
If so, must we not acknowledge that, at least, the general idea which is implied by the doctrine of Indulgences, not only is it not inconsistent with the tone of Holy Scripture, but that it cannot be denied without a grievous affront being offered to God’s infinite goodness and mercy.
The Apostle Paul believed in this kind of communication when he wrote to the Corinthians, “I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you the more, am I to be loved the less?” (2 Cor 12:15). And to the Colossians, “ Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24). And to Timothy, “I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory” (2 Tim 2:10).
This consideration, drawn from the general aspect of Sacred Scriptures, should be sufficient to show us how reasonably it can be said that God may, in consideration of the merits of some of His saints, remit to others the temporal debt due to their sins.
 
Victor,

Your drawings on Scripture also reflect a subtlety mirrored in the practice of indulgences…and again, the severity of sin…and that we are thankful we do have the sacrament of penance.
 
Temporal punishments abound in the Old Testament. David is punished for his sins with Bathsheeba and his baby is destroyed just as Nathan foretold. Then he is forgiven when he repents. No argument from me, Victor, that temporal punishments exist. And men like Cyrus of Persia acted as temporal saviours as well. Most Protestants will not be unreasonable and argue that the temporal punishments of God don’t exist in Scripture. But nowhere are we told that Christ forgives our sins then demands more of us in the next life to pay off the temporal stains we create on our souls.

We should not get too hung up on temporal things, but focus on the eternal. The Sadducees were obsessed with the temporal and it created in them an inability to see the eternal afterlife, going as far as to not even believe it existed.

Implicit arguments are not compelling to me. Paul does not explicitely teach these things nor do any of the Apostles. We see no Early Church Fathers extolling the virtues of making pilgrimages, visiting relics, saying repetitive prayers on certain days coupled with prayers for the pope or spending $$$ to buy indulgences. All these things popped up in the Middle Ages, especially around the time the popes were working on St. Peter’s and needed the cash. I find indulgences un-Biblical and innovative. We are no longer under the Law, but under the vehicle of faith.
That the doctrine of Indulgences is contained indirectly and implicitly in the Sacred Scriptures is almost self-evident. Let it be borne in mind what the general idea of an indulgence is. It has been said above that an indulgence is the remission of a temporal debt, made by God to a sinner, in consideration of the satisfactory merits of His Divine Son and of His saints. This is the same as to say, that God in His Mercy is willing to overlook a man’s debt, on the consideration that other men, have sufficiently atoned for that debt.
Now, of this benign acceptance of other person’s satisfaction on the part of God, we have no lack of proofs in Holy Scripture. When he had declared to His faithful servant Abraham that he would spare the unholy city of Sodom, if only ten just men were found therein; when Moses’s earnest request He delayed the punishment which He had decreed to inflict on the children of Israel, on account of their sin of idolatry—what were these, but proofs that God is willing to forgive man his debt of temporal punishment, in consideration of the satisfaction of others?
But we do not even need such proofs, to show that God readily accepts the satisfactions of some, as a compensation for the sins of others. For if, on account of the sin of one person only, He has sometimes punished whole kingdoms, as when He struck the Jewish nation for David’s sin in numbering his people, how can we doubt that He “whose tender mercies are above all His works” (Ps 119:41), who is much more prone to forgive than to punish, will overlook, in the dispensation of His justice, the infinite satisfactions of His beloved Son, and those of His elect, who are so dear to Him?
This cannot be. For is God is a severe Judge, He is equally clothed with the attributes of a tender Father; and if He has threatened “to visit the iniquities of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation” (Deut 5:9), He has no less pledged Himself to not leave unrewarded even the smallest good work, were it only the giving of a cup of cold water in his name (Mark 9:40).
If so, must we not acknowledge that, at least, the general idea which is implied by the doctrine of Indulgences, not only is it not inconsistent with the tone of Holy Scripture, but that it cannot be denied without a grievous affront being offered to God’s infinite goodness and mercy.
The Apostle Paul believed in this kind of communication when he wrote to the Corinthians, “I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you the more, am I to be loved the less?” (2 Cor 12:15). And to the Colossians, “ Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24). And to Timothy, “I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory” (2 Tim 2:10).
This consideration, drawn from the general aspect of Sacred Scriptures, should be sufficient to show us how reasonably it can be said that God may, in consideration of the merits of some of His saints, remit to others the temporal debt due to their sins.
 
And indeed, the temporal penalties of the OT necessarily point to Christ, do they not? 🙂 Not that we are free to live licentiously, but that we are to recognize the symbolism found in such penalties and rejoice that Christ has freed us from the bondage of the Law’s punishment.
 
Guerney,
Remember, I reviewed them and didn’t see any economics in them…I mean some people compared Treasury to an image akin to the US Treasury.
Even Catholic scholars call this an economic model, gurney didn’t make that up.

Model being the most important point to me - all descriptions of the atonement are essentially models.
 
The economy of salvation…is a term also used…that we cooperate with the Lord with the graces He has given us so that we make the effort to effectively respond to them.

The Lord has forgiven the Catholic Church for its sins during the Reformation. Do you???

When this thread began, I really had the impression right away that no Catholic would get anywhere with it.

I read some suggestions to someone who went to different threads always bringing up the same disputes over and over. Someone told him it was a matter of faith in the Church.

I came to that even in my own conversion as a cradle Catholic, and considering some of the things mentioned here as well as having overly strict Catholic nuns. I had to forgive. I had to place all of those events in God 's hands and pray…and it was an act of faith to accept and believe in the Church as Christ’s just as I had to believe in Him as my Savior and Redeemer.

To believe in the Church requires an act of faith because we are sinners. A fellow here said he had trouble about papal infallibility and the priest told him to pray…and it worked.

I went through all of the issues and questions in my life…but it didn’t prepare me for my own betrayal by some in the Church. Inside abuse and betrayals are the worst injuries and can destroy the faith. What kept me going was the sacraments. Now I am pretty much out of that experience and do not focus on sinful people in the Church. There is so much more good people than the chaff.

When I get tempted to get obsessive over a difficult personality, I have learned to immediately disengage and pray for that person, and put myself back into the life of Christ, – which the Catholic Church provides endless avenues for the ongoing nurturing and development of my faith. But do not put too much focus on people – and that includes priests.

So it is better and safer to keep my eyes on the Lord than any sinner, no matter their vocation.
 
I find indulgences un-Biblical and innovative. We are no longer under the Law, but under the vehicle of faith.
Your profile describes you as a Catholic, yet you reject Catholic doctrine. To reject Catholic doctrine is to cease to be Catholic. The Church was established by Jesus, who said that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. To reject Church teaching is to reject Christ. To reject Christ is to forfeit your salvation.
How do you reconcile this in your own mind.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
85 “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me,” the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.
 
To understand the Church, you have to see the faith of the Lord through pure eyes focused on the Lord and not others’ sins…or seeing everything through the filter of materialistic money and economics.

If you are doing the latter, then you are not looking at the Church through Christ but through the flesh and materialism through others’ sins and not coming to the Lord on your own.
 
Thanks for taking the time to read my profile and condemn me, Victor. It’s mind-boggling that you can sit here and imply I have forfeit my salvation and my Saviour. I will not return reply to any more of your posts or discuss theology or faith with you if you’re going to park yourself on a pedestal and judge me. You are in no place to and have no right to judge my heart and my desire for God or my walk with Him. I would never do that to you. Kindly put me on ignore rather than speak to me like this. It’s out of bounds.
See…works do lead to boasting…Paul was right! 👍:cool:
Your profile describes you as a Catholic, yet you reject Catholic doctrine. To reject Catholic doctrine is to cease to be Catholic. The Church was established by Jesus, who said that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. To reject Church teaching is to reject Christ. To reject Christ is to forfeit your salvation.
How do you reconcile this in your own mind.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
85 “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me,” the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.
 
Kathleen, I’m glad God has blessed you in helping you overcome your issues with that difficult personality. They can definitely tempt us in our walk with Jesus. Loving our enemies and those that hurt us is THE most difficult task of the Christian faith. It’s a killer sometimes. Praise God for helping you overcome your instincts, bad feelings, and fill it with grace. That’s great. 🙂
The economy of salvation…is a term also used…that we cooperate with the Lord with the graces He has given us so that we make the effort to effectively respond to them.

The Lord has forgiven the Catholic Church for its sins during the Reformation. Do you???

When this thread began, I really had the impression right away that no Catholic would get anywhere with it.

I read some suggestions to someone who went to different threads always bringing up the same disputes over and over. Someone told him it was a matter of faith in the Church.

I came to that even in my own conversion as a cradle Catholic, and considering some of the things mentioned here as well as having overly strict Catholic nuns. I had to forgive. I had to place all of those events in God 's hands and pray…and it was an act of faith to accept and believe in the Church as Christ’s just as I had to believe in Him as my Savior and Redeemer.

To believe in the Church requires an act of faith because we are sinners. A fellow here said he had trouble about papal infallibility and the priest told him to pray…and it worked.

I went through all of the issues and questions in my life…but it didn’t prepare me for my own betrayal by some in the Church. Inside abuse and betrayals are the worst injuries and can destroy the faith. What kept me going was the sacraments. Now I am pretty much out of that experience and do not focus on sinful people in the Church. There is so much more good people than the chaff.

When I get tempted to get obsessive over a difficult personality, I have learned to immediately disengage and pray for that person, and put myself back into the life of Christ, – which the Catholic Church provides endless avenues for the ongoing nurturing and development of my faith. But do not put too much focus on people – and that includes priests.

So it is better and safer to keep my eyes on the Lord than any sinner, no matter their vocation.
 
Yes I saw post 241…and it looked like those stereotypes…

I just got a list of where the moolah goes, that is, from our collection basket – so much goes to non-Catholic groups helping those in need.

My pastor is the one appointed in working with the abuse victims. I really like his daily Mass because he just focuses on the Apostolic tradition when we reflect on the Word of God, and gives us historical and sociological conditions in the times of the specific readings…
dont have time to read the whole post… but…

I’m not giving my $$ to an unorthodox priest…

i dont mind giving it to one who IS orthodox
 
Well, we all have our filters…

It is best to have all our senses, memory, and likes be renewed in Jesus Christ…Who is the one Who gives meaning to everything.

We see here all the time how deadly scandal is, and how severe the Lord’s words were towards those who cause it.

The saints advise not to look at scandal…because we all have it in ourselves. This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad! Let us look to the Lord and not fallen human nature and allow the Holy Spirit to bring understanding. Patience…
 
Just before you do that, could someone please respond to what I wrote-I intended it in good faith and it seems that “Entertainment Now” has overshadowed it. :rolleyes:

Thanks. 🙂
i dont see what the point is?

(some of us dont have time to read a bzillion posts… but i have read some… )

is the brother in law supposed to be an analogy of the Church??

well, this is a way off analogy if so… way off…

Jesus and His Church are inseparable… We wouldn’t even KNOW about Jesus if not for HIS Church… which came LONG b4 the New Testament … and decided which books to include therein… etc etc…
 
Yes I saw post 241…and it looked like those stereotypes…

I just got a list of where the moolah goes, that is, from our collection basket – so much goes to non-Catholic groups helping those in need.

My pastor is the one appointed in working with the abuse victims. I really like his daily Mass because he just focuses on the Apostolic tradition when we reflect on the Word of God, and gives us historical and sociological conditions in the times of the specific readings…

Being in the Apostolic perspective for me is being in the stillpoint of God where everything is in perfect balance. And we then have the Eucharist – and on Wednesday’s – Adoration of the Lord following. There is such a communion among us at Mass, all one without alot of worldly conversations…it is like we already know who each other is to the depth of their being, and where each other is…and the Lord is carrying us forward…we don’t have to do anything but to receive Him…The Lord in the sacrament truly makes us one.

People here asked what my indulgences were, which ones were those I practiced…I ‘invited them into my home’, when I described what was there…and then I found out sombody here in their home…has a number of books regarding the state of the Catholic Church during the Reformation.

So if a person’s treasure and merits contain a library of past sin and scandal, well, it would be hard to see how we practice our faith, aka what is in my home with my sacramentals.

St. Catherine warned us not to focus on others’ sins because it will affect our faith.

We may have Bohemians here…more of an issue these days than the $5 stipends.
i thought it was now $10.00

and when i see priests driving around in new cars, living in 4 bedroom homes … while other parishioners have old cars and small homes… and the priests probably have the diocese to pay for any repairs on same… whereas others have to struggle… some can’t even afford a house…

well… like i said… i wouldn’t mind giving $$ to an orthodox priest even then… but … there are plenty out there who… act like closet masons… which i guess is a redundant term… but in any case… I am NOT going to give that kind of priest $$
 
cruisin;6621967:
6
for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges."
7
Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline?
8
If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards.
9
:eek:

.
😃
 
Indulgence is discipline for the Children of God who may be chastised by our heavenly Father, because “the Father chastises those whom he loves”. Due to our confessed, forgiven forgotten sin by God.
you obviously dont get it…

i dont know why anyone said “forgotten sin” ?? assuming anyone actually did… :confused:🤷

Technically, it is WE who do not forget our sins… it is WE who are riddled w/ guilty and… negativity because of our sins… the consequences thereof… i dont know why people have a hard time distinguishing between forgiveness and purification… You can forgive your son for wallowing in the mud w/ the pigs… but that doesn’t mean you want him near you at a wedding celebration…

but you will probably argue w/ this…

…I can see it now…you are holding your nose… introducing your son to everyone… “Look, everyone, this is my son…Isn’t he beautiful and wonderful? i know u can’t recognize him under all that hog ****… and i know he smells absolutely horrible… but hey, he’s my son…I embrace him even though i will get hog *** all over me… but please welcome him and embrace him also… into this celebration…:eek:😃
 
GAbriel, I have been following this thread since the beginning and Ihave read all the catholic reasoning, but I can only come to one conclusion, and that is that an indulgence is a bank of works that can be added to and withdrawn from by prayer, saying masses, paying money, etc. All I see is a good money making scheme from by the church. And they have you hook line a sinker. Either Christs blood is enough to save my soul or it isn’t.
 
i dont see what the point is?

(some of us dont have time to read a bzillion posts… but i have read some… )

is the brother in law supposed to be an analogy of the Church??

well, this is a way off analogy if so… way off…

Jesus and His Church are inseparable… We wouldn’t even KNOW about Jesus if not for HIS Church… which came LONG b4 the New Testament … and decided which books to include therein… etc etc…
Not so much the church as the hierarchy-the church is the bride in the narrative.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. 🙂
 
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