What is your opinion of prolific eBay seller "Liturgy?"

[ElToro]

Do any of you ever surf eBay to look at old liturgical gear? One seller really makes me wonder. “Liturgy” sells tons of old chalices, ciboria, candlesticks, crucifixes, etc. etc.

I can just imagine a knock on a rectory door “Father, do you have any surplus church goods you might put up for sale? I pay in cash” and away we go. In some ways “Liturgy” is doing a service I suppose (they might well be wonderful sellers) but it sure would be nice if this stuff was being redistributed by (arch)dioceses, societies, orders, etc. and not by private traders for profit.

Some of the stuff is brand new, knock-off junk, but a lot looks like it has been pulled right out of sacristies. Even when a parish closes I would think that much of the “hardware” could be re-distributed within the Church.

The only reason I bring-up “liturgy” is that this seller is BY FAR the most prolific seller of used Catholic liturgical gear on eBay. As someone else noted with precious metal prices through the roof, will we start to see old sacred vessels being smelted for their scrap value?

I bought something from “Liturgy” several years ago when they had less than 100 sales. It was a good deal and they processed my order quickly. Now with thousands of sales their prices tend to be too high so I just ignore their offerings but that image of “Liturgy” at the rectory door still gives me the creeps.

 

[EasterJoy]

I know of some local religious orders that simply have more sacred hardware than they know what to do with, and not enough money to retire on. (I assume that families of priests must donate them when their brother/uncle the padre dies and they don’t know what to do with his personal chalice and Mass set.) It is also unfortunately true that parishes are being consolidated. Finally, if a parish has several lovely main chalices but has no sets appropriate for common communion cups, they might sell or trade one elaborate chalice for two or more simpler ones suitable for congregational use. Those are possible legitimate sources; I wish I could say they must be rare.

At any rate, while of course these articles are originally new from merchants, I agree that I would be uncomfortable selling articles that have been blessed to some unknown party on e-Bay. Who knows what use they might be put to? It’s worrisome. Honestly, being melted down is one of the better fates I could imagine.

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

The UK Jesuits just sold the historic and unique 1000 year old St. Cuthbert Bible (actually Gospel of John) to the British Library for $14 million because they need funds to restore buildings and such.

A shame to think of such a treasure leaving Church hands, and I do wonder where “Liturgy” is getting all his goodies. Must be careful also about sale or desecration of relics.

 

[ElToro]

I know of some local religious orders that simply have more sacred hardware than they know what to do with, and not enough money to retire on. (I assume that families of priests must donate them when their brother/uncle the padre dies and they don’t know what to do with his personal chalice and Mass set.) It is also unfortunately true that parishes are being consolidated. Finally, if a parish has several lovely main chalices but has no sets appropriate for common communion cups, they might sell or trade one elaborate chalice for two or more simpler ones suitable for congregational use. Those are possible legitimate sources; I wish I could say they must be rare.

At any rate, while of course these articles are originally new from merchants, I agree that I would be uncomfortable selling articles that have been blessed to some unknown party on e-Bay. Who knows what use they might be put to? It’s worrisome. Honestly, being melted down is one of the better fates I could imagine.

That’s true. The thought of a Catholic priest’s chalice that saw 60 years of service and is now on eBay only to be purchased by someone in the occult is indeed sad to even ponder.

 

[Georgia]

I took a look and I have to say I was surprised. Maybe I was sheltered, but I didn’t know things like that got into the market. Among the offerings is a reliquary with relics. The seller asked potential buyers to give the item to the Church. I hope that request is honored.

 

[JRKH]

I took a look and I have to say I was surprised. Maybe I was sheltered, but I didn’t know things like that got into the market. **Among the offerings is a reliquary with relics. The seller asked potential buyers to give the item to the Church. I hope that request is honored. **

Actually the Seller needs to do this. It is against Church Law to sell relics. I actually learned this on Pawn Stars (of all places). Someone brought in a relic of St Seton and the expert they brought in to translate the Latin Document shared that it was illegal to buy and sell these.

Edit:
I just looked at the listing over at E-bay and it appears that he is “selling” the reliquary and “gifting” the relics contained there-in.
He states it thus:
“You are bidding on the reliquary, the relics are included as a gift with no added value”

Given this, It seems that the seller knows what he is doing. Also I note that he has a top rating as a seller.

Peace
James

 

[Hesychios]

The UK Jesuits just sold the historic and unique 1000 year old St. Cuthbert Bible (actually Gospel of John) to the British Library for $14 million because they need funds to restore buildings and such.

A shame to think of such a treasure leaving Church hands …

Actually, only the Pope can alienate church property, I suppose others can do so with permission.

However, the Society of Jesus is not the church as such. It is a collection of persons who are all Catholic, and the Society’s property is not the church’s property. So if they really own it free and clear, they can dispose of it as they see fit.

I can think of worse fates for the book than being installed into a museum or library.

… and I do wonder where “Liturgy” is getting all his goodies. Must be careful also about sale or desecration of relics.

I remember seeing a lot of old church material in religious goods stores around Chicago. So many old inner city parishes were being shut down and consolidated that there were duplicates and triplicates of everything. Anything inadvertently left becomes the property of salvagers.

A lot of the material was donated and sent to the former Soviet Union to serve reopening parishes, especially to Lithuania. But there is only so much they can handle before they are swamped with extras too.

Trafficking in relics is a very old practice.

In fact, many of the most important early ones were stolen, not bought, from other churches. Often they were donated to the churches in new places in conjunction with penances, or for Chantry Masses.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Among the offerings is a reliquary with relics. The seller asked potential buyers to give the item to the Church. I hope that request is honored.

Oh dear, this is not allowed. Relics cannot be sold or bought. The seller MUST give them to the church. I wonder if he knows that. A friendly message should be sent in order to clarify this and get him to do the right thing.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

“You are bidding on the reliquary, the relics are included as a gift with no added value”

Given this, It seems that the seller knows what he is doing. Also I note that he has a top rating as a seller.

Interesting way of putting it. He obviously knows his stuff. Dodgy in any case.

I know a priest who sometimes buys things on ebay. He has managed to find beautiful old vestments this way. The best possible scenario for this kind of thing I guess. I wonder how many priests do the same.

 

[ElToro]

Actually the Seller needs to do this. It is against Church Law to sell relics. I actually learned this on Pawn Stars (of all places). Someone brought in a relic of St Seton and the expert they brought in to translate the Latin Document shared that it was illegal to buy and sell these.

Edit:
I just looked at the listing over at E-bay and it appears that he is “selling” the reliquary and “gifting” the relics contained there-in.
He states it thus:
“You are bidding on the reliquary, the relics are included as a gift with no added value”

Given this, It seems that the seller knows what he is doing. Also I note that he has a top rating as a seller.

Peace
James

Some of the losers on eBay give the disclaimer that one is only pay for the reliquery and that the relic is a “gift” as you show. Very sad that eBay won’t clamp down on the sorta things. They sure clamped down on guns like RIGHT NOW! It shows just how weak the Church (the bishops) are in the USA.

 

[ElToro]

Oh dear, this is not allowed. Relics cannot be sold or bought. The seller MUST give them to the church. I wonder if he knows that. A friendly message should be sent in order to clarify this and get him to do the right thing.

It won’t work – I have tried. What would work is bidding on and buying the relics and then hammering their pristine feedback histories…

 

[ElToro]

Actually, only the Pope can alienate church property, I suppose others can do so with permission.

However, the Society of Jesus is not the church as such. It is a collection of persons who are all Catholic, and the Society’s property is not the church’s property. So if they really own it free and clear, they can dispose of it as they see fit.

I can think of worse fates for the book than being installed into a museum or library.
I remember seeing a lot of old church material in religious goods stores around Chicago. So many old inner city parishes were being shut down and consolidated that there were duplicates and triplicates of everything. Anything inadvertently left becomes the property of salvagers.

A lot of the material was donated and sent to the former Soviet Union to serve reopening parishes, especially to Lithuania. **But there is only so much they can handle before they are swamped with extras too.**Trafficking in relics is a very old practice.

In fact, many of the most important early ones were stolen, not bought, from other churches. Often they were donated to the churches in new places in conjunction with penances, or for Chantry Masses.

There is a HUGE demand for “old church material” in the missions. Especially the very basics to celebrate the Mass. Things like sacred vessels, etc. Once again, the Church just doesn’t seem to be organized well enough to manage this sort of thing.

Imagine how well the Mormons handle this sort of stuff within their organization…

 

[Newbie2]

That’s true. The thought of a Catholic priest’s chalice that saw 60 years of service and is now on eBay only to be purchased by someone in the occult is indeed sad to even ponder.

Don’t underestimate the power of the one in who’s name such an item was blessed. I agree, we would bristle at such a use, but there is the notion that such a blessed article could help counter the evil that was being attempted, no?

Actually the Seller needs to do this. It is against Church Law to sell relics. I actually learned this on Pawn Stars (of all places). Someone brought in a relic of St Seton and the expert they brought in to translate the Latin Document shared that it was illegal to buy and sell these.

Edit:
I just looked at the listing over at E-bay and it appears that he is “selling” the reliquary and “gifting” the relics contained there-in.
He states it thus:
“You are bidding on the reliquary, the relics are included as a gift with no added value”

Given this, It seems that the seller knows what he is doing. Also I note that he has a top rating as a seller.

Peace
James

Yeah, there’s lots of eBay strategery going on…like selling an item very cheap and having a high S+ H to lessen the fees, as eBay commissions are calculated on the selling price exclusive of the S+H.

 

[ElToro]

Don’t underestimate the power of the one in who’s name such an item was blessed. I agree, we would bristle at such a use, but there is the notion that such a blessed article could help counter the evil that was being attempted, no?

Yeah, there’s lots of eBay strategery going on…like selling an item very cheap and having a high S+ H to lessen the fees, as eBay commissions are calculated on the selling price exclusive of the S+H.

Many chalices (particuarly older ones) have actually been consecrated.

 

[JoanREDirector]

I thought once an article, such as a rosary or medal,was blesst it could not be bought and resold. Once it was to worn or ruined it should be reverently burned or buired. I aso thought that articles used in the Mass, such as vestiments or chalices, that were worn out or damaged in something like a fire or flood had to be treated the same way … the same for tattered altar linens or objects such as a pyx.

Certainly usable items of this nature can’t be sold.

Am I wrong?

 

[ElToro]

I thought once an article, such as a rosary or medal,was blesst it could not be bought and resold. Once it was to worn or ruined it should be reverently burned or buired. I aso thought that articles used in the Mass, such as vestiments or chalices, that were worn out or damaged in something like a fire or flood had to be treated the same way … the same for tattered altar linens or objects such as a pyx.

Certainly usable items of this nature can’t be sold.

Am I wrong?

I believe that something like a chalice can be sold but their price cannot reflect the “added value” of being consecrated or blessed in the sales advertising.

Now is that the highest form of re-use? No way. Most priests I know who have chalices already have them included in their wills. Either going to a much younger priest or to their seminaries to be given to a newly ordained priest in the future.

I know locally here a priest passed away and he had a GIANT collection of remarkable gear. Maybe 100 chalices, 75 patens, 50 ciboria, 15 censers you name it. And he only retained the very best. When a priest friend passed ovr the years he and his collection were often the recipient of their sacred vessels. When he passed the entire collection was catalogued and shipped to one of the religious societies that is growing like wildfire per the deceased priest’s will.

 

[ElToro]

When I see “Liturgy” offer things like this for sale on eBay (as it is right now):

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Old-all-sterling-silver-Gothic-Chalice-Paten-Case-/00/$(KGrHqJ,!igE3(2WoNsBBOCW7tVUOw~~0_3.JPG

For $1960.00 (which might possibly be a decent deal) it sorta makes me cringe. I would bet this was sold out of a sacristy somewhere for something like 10% of the current asking price. How nice it would be if the Church in the USA had a national system (at least) for reusing such wonderful gear without the profiteers taking their gallon of blood…

 

[JRKH]

I thought once an article, such as a rosary or medal,was blesst it could not be bought and resold. Once it was to worn or ruined it should be reverently burned or buired. I aso thought that articles used in the Mass, such as vestiments or chalices, that were worn out or damaged in something like a fire or flood had to be treated the same way … the same for tattered altar linens or objects such as a pyx.

Certainly usable items of this nature can’t be sold.

Am I wrong?

I heard a priest at our parish talk about finding some beautiful vestments at - I think it was - a St Vincent de Paul store.

I know that when a Catholic Church is closed no longer to be used for mass, there is a ceremony performed to - I don’t know the correct term - “deconsecrate” it I wonder if something similar can/is done for chalices etc.

Brother JR - Where are you - We need (name removed by moderator)ut…

Peace
James

 

[ElToro]

I heard a priest at our parish talk about finding some beautiful vestments at - I think it was - a St Vincent de Paul store.

I know that when a Catholic Church is closed no longer to be used for mass, there is a ceremony performed to - I don’t know the correct term - “deconsecrate” it I wonder if something similar can/is done for chalices etc.

Brother JR - Where are you - We need (name removed by moderator)ut…

Peace
James

There is no deconsecration of either buildings nor sacred vessels. Once they are used for profane purposes (in the case of a church with the local ordinary’s approval) they lose their special status.

 

[corsair]

I have purchased several things from “Liturgy” or “Creative Urns” as they are also called.
Don’t blame them for the high prices. These things are treated as works of art with prices to match.

It doesn’t matter, to many people in business, that they sell Relics. There are no “relic cops”. Its not against the civil law.

Sets of Altar candle sticks with Crucifixes are selling for 2,000 to 5,000 bucks. You bet thats expensive but they are getting it.