What is your opinion?

[SonSearcher]

So I was listening to Cresta in the Afternoon, today he had Jimmy Akin senior apologist at Catholic Answers.

Al and Jimmy were talking about Pope Francis and the washing of the inmates feet from last Thursday.

Well I felt they were doing a good job discussing it and putting it in relatively good light, making sound points and so on.

Then this guy called. He said he is appalled by the action of the Pope… he further stated, very calmly I might add, that he (paraphrasing)

“lived through the revolution in the US during the 60s and 70s, he felt that the Church should have been his rock as society was in a downward spiral, but he said it wasn’t. He saw turmoil then all over the place secular or otherwise.”

So I guess what I ask is not “what is your opinion of the foot washing?” because there are nine hundred pretty hot threads on that now.

But how did you feel about the Church during the 60s and 70s, while Vatican II was going on and being implemented? Did you feel a certain turmoil then?

I know it is this guys “feelings” but I had never heard this put this way.

 

[Lormar]

I can only answer you honestly. Undoubtedly, someone will pipe in here with the exact opposite to my own reactions. For myself, I wouldn’t want to live through either decade ever again. They were horrible.

 

[johnmann]

What’s he complaining about? How was the Church not a rock? Because Mass was said in the vernacular?

 

[Lucky7]

What’s he complaining about? How was the Church not a rock? Because Mass was said in the vernacular?

I’m going to guess that the major changes in the Church gave him a sense of insecurity amidst all of theother things that were going on at the time.

 

[McCall1981]

I didn’t live through either of those decades, and from that perspecitve I’m glad I didn’t. I think I probably would have felt like this guy did. Probably would have been an unsettling time for me.

 

[Lucky7]

I can only answer you honestly. Undoubtedly, someone will pipe in here with the exact opposite to my own reactions. For myself, I wouldn’t want to live through either decade ever again. They were horrible.

I was not Catholic at the time but this is the general sense I get from most Catholics I know that lived through pre-Vatican II to Vatican II.

 

[Lucky7]

I didn’t live through either of those decades, and from that perspecitve I’m glad I didn’t. I think I probably would have felt like this guy did. Probably would have been an unsettling time for me.

I know…me too. I can not even imagine what it must have felt like to them.

 

[hudson]

After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US–a total of 549–were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000–and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

 

[Lucky7]

After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US–a total of 549–were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000–and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

Wow. Those numbers are certainly sobering.

 

[JM3]

Did you feel a certain turmoil then?

Being a child of the 60’s and a teenager of the 70’s, I don’t think turmoil would be the right word. Not for me, anyway. It was more like being cut off and set to drift. One day your life was regulated and the next you did as you please.

I have some very good memories from the 60’s and 70’s, as well as some bad ones. Would I go back and do it again?

Yes.

 

[McCall1981]

After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US–a total of 549–were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000–and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

Sad stuff, but I take heart in two points.

First, the overall number of Priests in the world was dropping for a while too, but has reversed and has been rising rather quickly now for a while. We may lament at the state of the American Church, but ultimately its the world wide Church as a whole that matters, and from that persepctive we’re doing pretty well.

Second, you have to keep in mind that there is a built in delay between the state of the Church at any given time, and the Priests it produces. I’ve heard a lot of people speculate that the “low point” for the Church and Liturgy was around the mid-eighties, and that since then we’ve slowly been improving and restoring. If this is true, then a shortage of Priests right now should be expected, since Priests who are currently young or are now in seminary were the ones growing up through the “low point”. The ones that have benefitted from the “restoration” of JPII and Benedict etc have not yet appeared on the scene so to speak.

For instance, the generation of Priests that will benefit from growing up with Summorum Pontificum are little children right now, and wont be Priests for a couple of decades yet.

 

[GEddie]

Being a child of the 60’s and a teenager of the 70’s, I don’t think turmoil would be the right word. Not for me, anyway. It was more like being cut off and set to drift. One day your life was regulated and the next you did as you please.

I have some very good memories from the 60’s and 70’s, as well as some bad ones. Would I go back and do it again?

Yes.

Still, is it the period you miss, or the young self you had then???

ICXC NIKA

 

[ChiTownGal]

After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US–a total of 549–were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000–and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

There is no priestly shortage or nun shortage in Africa. The seminaries and convents are bursting at the seams. Maybe we should take a look at what they’re doing right.

 

[Megan7]

After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US–a total of 549–were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000–and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

Wow

Praying the Rosary…

 

[IrishRush]

I think the sense of turmoil and insecurity felt after V II is more than understandable.
After all, look how worked up people got over a few changes to the Mass recently.
Change comes hard, but eventually people adjust.

 

[McCall1981]

There is no priestly shortage or nun shortage in Africa. The seminaries and convents are bursting at the seams. Maybe we should take a look at what they’re doing right.

This is what I was pointing out too. Yes, the American Church (and European Church) is not doing well, but the worldwide Church is. There are places in Africa and Asia where young men are put on waiting lists before entering seminary becasue there is literally no room for them.

So, like most things, its a matter of perspective.

 

[Kathy16670]

Vatican II was a great council. Unfortunately, when it allowed for a tiny change in something, people (on their own “interpretation” of Vatican II) changed things in a huge way. In many parishes (like the one I attended as a little girl with my family,) we went from the Baltimore Catechism, to holding hands and singing Kubuya, and not much more. In some Parishes, a lot of heresy entered in. And some Priests (not all!) allowed for a lot of “hippy dippy” stuff to enter the Mass. I can remember scandalous homilies (there is no such thing as sin,) and the ballet dance in front of the alter before communion.) No, I’m not making that up (wish I was!)

I think that is what the author was referencing.

Fortunately, I think the “Personal interpretation of Vatican II” pendulum has swung the other way, and we are returning to orthodoxy again.

 

[opus101]

There is no priestly shortage or nun shortage in Africa. The seminaries and convents are bursting at the seams. Maybe we should take a look at what they’re doing right.

Hopefully they will be able to send us missionaries!

Also, maybe there will be a huge influx of converts from Anglicanism, etc., cases where former pastors will be able to be ordained as Catholic priests.

And hopefully, there will be a reconciliation between East and West, which would be a huge increase in numbers.

 

[coachdennis]

So I was listening to Cresta in the Afternoon, today he had Jimmy Akin senior apologist at Catholic Answers.

Al and Jimmy were talking about Pope Francis and the washing of the inmates feet from last Thursday.

Well I felt they were doing a good job discussing it and putting it in relatively good light, making sound points and so on.

Then this guy called. He said he is appalled by the action of the Pope… he further stated, very calmly I might add, that he (paraphrasing)

“lived through the revolution in the US during the 60s and 70s, he felt that the Church should have been his rock as society was in a downward spiral, but he said it wasn’t. He saw turmoil then all over the place secular or otherwise.”

So I guess what I ask is not “what is your opinion of the foot washing?” because there are nine hundred pretty hot threads on that now.

But how did you feel about the Church during the 60s and 70s, while Vatican II was going on and being implemented? Did you feel a certain turmoil then?

I know it is this guys “feelings” but I had never heard this put this way.

I’m going to throw a monkey wrench in some people’s thinking with what I am going to say, but I feel have to say it.

In the American history class I teach, I explain to my students that many people felt this way in the 1960s as the person who called this radio show. All institutions went through massive changes, we had changes in technology, laws, large movements such as civil rights, the women’s movement, the counterculture etc. It did feel to many people that everything they believed in and thought was as solid as a rock was torn asunder. As for many Catholics this carried over to the church.

Here’s where monkey wrench #1 comes in: For many of these people in America, the time that they “remember” has being ideal was really a short period of time, basically from 1945 until the end of the 1960s. The good old days did NOT exist in the twelve to fifteen years of Great Depression and World War. And the good old days did NOT exist for all people in this country, it only existed for an limited few. Many people are looking at the pre sixties with rose-colored glasses at a world that never REALLY existed.

Monkey Wrench #2: I will only recount a story told by a theology teacher I had in the late 1970s. She was a nun and we were discussing the preparation in parishes of introducing communion in the hand. She had taught in Catholic parish school for many years and one of her former students contacted her and in tears sobbed about how entire faith was being shattered. The teacher mused to the class that when we taught young children that NOTHING in the church was changeable , perhaps “we did TOO good a job when it came to disciplines” (her words).

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I wasn’t born then so can’t really contribute much.

As for the Holy Father washing the feet of women and non-christians, it appears to be much ado about nothing. I fully trust his judgement.