What is your own personal proof you are in the right Church?

[gcnuss]

If we want to find the true Christian faith–in all its fullness–we need to look at its foundation. Depending on whatever statistics we look at there are anywhere from 33,000 to 150, 000 groups, cults, and denominations each claiming to have the authentic Christian faith. Who is right? By looking at the founders of these groups we can come up with some key insights. For the purpose of this work, we will look at the founders of the main Christian and pseudo-Christian ecclesiastical communities in the United States and Europe. All quality historians, from Harvard to Oxford, and all quality history books, whether Catholic or secular, recognize Jesus as founding the Catholic Church (ca. 33 AD). More will be said about this later. Now let us look at some of the Protestant and pseudo-Christian ecclesiastical communities. Remember, there was no such thing as a Protestant Church until the sixteenth century; Jesus can never be claimed as the founder of any Protestant denomination.

Polycarp1,

From a Lutheran perspective, Jesus Christ is the founder of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of which I am a member just as you are a member. I believe that the history of that church is a shared history until the time of the Reformation. Lutheranism did not spring up ex nihilo in 1517. All that we believe is grounded in the first fifteen centuries of the Church.

As Lutherans, we share in confessing the three ecumenical creeds, each of which predates the Reformation by centuries. We confess our belief in the Holy Trinity as expressed in each of those creeds. We share God’s word, the Holy Scriptures, and our hope for eternal life through the suffering, death, and resurrection of our Lord.

I pray that, as the Holy Spirit leads, we will be reunited as the Body of Christ.

 

[Della]

Polycarp1,

From a Lutheran perspective, Jesus Christ is the founder of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of which I am a member just as you are a member. I believe that the history of that church is a shared history until the time of the Reformation. Lutheranism did not spring up ex nihilo in 1517. All that we believe is grounded in the first fifteen centuries of the Church.

As Lutherans, we share in confessing the three ecumenical creeds, each of which predates the Reformation by centuries. We confess our belief in the Holy Trinity as expressed in each of those creeds. We share God’s word, the Holy Scriptures, and our hope for eternal life through the suffering, death, and resurrection of our Lord.

I pray that, as the Holy Spirit leads, we will be reunited as the Body of Christ.

We haven’t gone anywhere.

 

[TOmNossor]

I am a LDS.
When I joined the CoJCoLDS, I joined based mostly on what I called “logical pillars.” There were a couple of interlocking reasons that lead me to believe that God was at the head of the CoJCoLDS. I still believe these things to be strong supports but not as totally unassailable as I once believed them to be.
When these “logical pillars” were shook, I needed what LDS typically call a testimony. God did not give this to me all at once, but I now have what a LDS would call a “spiritual confirmation” that I am in God’s church. God has continued to provide me with similar experience over the years.
During my period of doubt I began researching other religions and looking closely at Catholicism. My weighing of the evidence leads me to the conclusion that the CoJCoLDS as a restoration and Catholicism as no longer possessing Christ’s authority is a more reasoned conclusion than the alternative. That being said, I try to acknowledge that my “weighing of evidence” could be wrong. I can also say, positively toward the Catholic Church, that without the CoJCoLDS, I would not be a “Restorationist-in-waiting.”
I am thankful that my intellect and my spiritual witness point in the same direction. This is true of many folks I know, but it is not true for everyone.
Charity, TOm

 

[truthseeker32]

I am a LDS.
When I joined the CoJCoLDS, I joined based mostly on what I called “logical pillars.” There were a couple of interlocking reasons that lead me to believe that God was at the head of the CoJCoLDS. I still believe these things to be strong supports but not as totally unassailable as I once believed them to be.
When these “logical pillars” were shook, I needed what LDS typically call a testimony. God did not give this to me all at once, but I now have what a LDS would call a “spiritual confirmation” that I am in God’s church. God has continued to provide me with similar experience over the years.
During my period of doubt I began researching other religions and looking closely at Catholicism. My weighing of the evidence leads me to the conclusion that the CoJCoLDS as a restoration and Catholicism as no longer possessing Christ’s authority is a more reasoned conclusion than the alternative. That being said, I try to acknowledge that my “weighing of evidence” could be wrong. I can also say, positively toward the Catholic Church, that without the CoJCoLDS, I would not be a “Restorationist-in-waiting.”
I am thankful that my intellect and my spiritual witness point in the same direction. This is true of many folks I know, but it is not true for everyone.
Charity, TOm

I always saw the LDS faith as the quintessential American faith. People tend to believe in it for subjective reasons, which post-enlightenment philosophy emphasized over the Scholastic tradition that emphasizes that God can be known through interaction with external things. It would take quite the mystical experience to get me to go back because God knows there are plenty of reasons not to believe in the LDS faith. You are the first person I have heard claim to believe because of “logical pillars.”

 

[stewstew03]

“As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.”

The Church of England has also erred. But as a Protestant I assert my right to disregard the unbiblical teachings of the Church to which I belong. Were I Roman Catholic, I would not be able to do so.

Well, at least you recognize your church doesn’t have any teaching authority…

 

[gcnuss]

We haven’t gone anywhere.

As a lifelong Lutheran, neither have I.

 

[Della]

As a lifelong Lutheran, neither have I.

I was brought up Episcopalian so I know how close it is to the Lutheran community. We left the Episcopal Church when I was a young teen after my father died and my mother became caught up in Pentecostalism in the Assemblies of God–a far cry from the liturgical as one can get. C. S. Lewis brought me back to the Episcopal Church but it was no longer the church of my childhood and has only wandered farther away over the years.

Initially, J. R. R. Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings” softened the way to the Catholic Church for me, along with other influences, which I cited in my first post in this thread, and a deep search for the truth. Each of us is on our own journey and only God can lead us as he sees fit and we are open to it. I too hope the Lutherans and Catholics can reunite.

My little jibe was meant to say that since the Lutherans left the Catholics they will have to embrace, as did the Ordinariate Anglicans, that in the Catholic Church subsists all the truth and graces needed for salvation and to be separated from it, even partially, is to deny oneself all that one could be receiving from God.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

My father was a pastor in the Assemblee di Dio in Italia (Assemblies of God in Italy), probably the largest Pentecostal denomination in Italy. So I was raised as a Pentecostal all my life, with my parents being quite hostile to Catholicism or anything liturgical, for that matter.

I have for about a year and a half (or perhaps more) since abandoned that form of Evangelicalism. I’m a student of history, and I revere it, so when I realized that the church in which I grew up was almost entirely absent until about the 1800s, I began asking myself questions.

So I don’t know where Christian truth lies today, but I know it’s grounded in history and the early Church Fathers.

 

[PJM]

=FabiusMaximus;10098278]My father was a pastor in the Assemblee di Dio in Italia (Assemblies of God in Italy), probably the largest Pentecostal denomination in Italy. So I was raised as a Pentecostal all my life, with my parents being quite hostile to Catholicism or anything liturgical, for that matter.

I have for about a year and a half (or perhaps more) since abandoned that form of Evangelicalism. I’m a student of history, and I revere it, so when I realized that the church in which I grew up was almost entirely absent until about the 1800s, I began asking myself questions.

So I don’t know where Christian truth lies today, but I know it’s grounded in history and the early Church Fathers.

My friend, may God guide your path to where He desires you to go

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[ffg]

I love converts.

The decision to become Catholic when not a cradle Catholic stikes a chord in me that really motivates me. People go through all kinds of study, reflection, prayer, cold shoulders from friends and family, yet still choose to walk closer to Christ than they were previously. It really reminds me of those guys who left their father and lives to follow Him. Very powerful.

A statement I’ve found to hold true:

People leave the Catholic Church because of some kind of event in their lives, or a dislike of something in the Church. People join the Catholic Church because they are seeking the fullness of Truth.

If the difference isn’t too clear, people don’t leave the Church because they find the fullness of Truth elsewhere.

A piece of history that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately that also contributes to my appreciation of the Catholic Church is when Jesus said to Thomas specifically, and then to everyone - Truth is not limited to human senses.

Faith in Thomas’ trustworthy friends is all he needed to believe and build his Faith in God.

The Church is my friend, my faith is weak, my friend is strong.

 

[Della]

I love converts.

The decision to become Catholic when not a cradle Catholic stikes a chord in me that really motivates me. People go through all kinds of study, reflection, prayer, cold shoulders from friends and family, yet still choose to walk closer to Christ than they were previously. It really reminds me of those guys who left their father and lives to follow Him. Very powerful.

A statement I’ve found to hold true:

People leave the Catholic Church because of some kind of event in their lives, or a dislike of something in the Church. People join the Catholic Church because they are seeking the fullness of Truth.

If the difference isn’t too clear, people don’t leave the Church because they find the fullness of Truth elsewhere.

A piece of history that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately that also contributes to my appreciation of the Catholic Church is when Jesus said to Thomas specifically, and then to everyone - Truth is not limited to human senses.

Faith in Thomas’ trustworthy friends is all he needed to believe and build his Faith in God.

The Church is my friend, my faith is weak, my friend is strong.

As a convert I went through everything you cited, except the reaction from friends wasn’t a mere cold shoulder but shock and rejection.

I’m assuming you mean Thomas Aquinas? Or am I wrong?

 

[ffg]

As a convert I went through everything you cited, except the reaction from friends wasn’t a mere cold shoulder but shock and rejection.

I’m assuming you mean Thomas Aquinas? Or am I wrong?

Hi Della!

I meant the Apostle Thomas, in the room after the resurrection where they were gathered discussing the big news story of the year - Until the news story walked in on them through the locked door.

That would have been wild.

 

[PJM]

=ffg;10098653]I love converts.

The decision to become Catholic when not a cradle Catholic stikes a chord in me that really motivates me. People go through all kinds of study, reflection, prayer, cold shoulders from friends and family, yet still choose to walk closer to Christ than they were previously. It really reminds me of those guys who left their father and lives to follow Him. Very powerful.

A statement I’ve found to hold true:

People leave the Catholic Church because of some kind of event in their lives, or a dislike of something in the Church. People join the Catholic Church because they are seeking the fullness of Truth.

If the difference isn’t too clear, people don’t leave the Church because they find the fullness of Truth elsewhere.

A piece of history that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately that also contributes to my appreciation of the Catholic Church is when Jesus said to Thomas specifically, and then to everyone - Truth is not limited to human senses.

Faith in Thomas’ trustworthy friends is all he needed to believe and build his Faith in God.

The Church is my friend, my faith is weak, my friend is strong.

Hope you’ll stay with us

A profound observation. Thanks for sharing it!

Continued Blessings,

pat /PJM

 

[gcnuss]

My little jibe was meant to say that since the Lutherans left the Catholics they will have to embrace, as did the Ordinariate Anglicans, that in the Catholic Church subsists all the truth and graces needed for salvation and to be separated from it, even partially, is to deny oneself all that one could be receiving from God.

Della,
At the risk of sounding combative – and that is not my intent – I don’t believe that, as a Lutheran, I am denying myself all that I could be receiving from God. I know that Catholic teaching is that I am, but I don’t believe that the Catholic Church is authoritative in determining my relationship with God. Having said that, I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic Church, both for the history we share and for its dedication to proclaiming the Gospel. I have said before that if I found it impossible to remain Lutheran I would have to look to the Catholic Church for a new home.

 

[TOmNossor]

I always saw the LDS faith as the quintessential American faith. People tend to believe in it for subjective reasons, which post-enlightenment philosophy emphasized over the Scholastic tradition that emphasizes that God can be known through interaction with external things. It would take quite the mystical experience to get me to go back because God knows there are plenty of reasons not to believe in the LDS faith. You are the first person I have heard claim to believe because of “logical pillars.”

I remember that thought that a spiritual experience would have to be quite powerful to turn me from where I thought reason directed me. I called it an “Abraham - Isaac” experience. After this I heard others speak of a voice from a “burning bush.”
I no longer consider myself as one without a spiritual witness or without communications from God, but I do not believe I have received something like an “Abraham-Isaac” experience.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

The decision to become Catholic when not a cradle Catholic stikes a chord in me that really motivates me. People go through all kinds of study, reflection, prayer, cold shoulders from friends and family, yet still choose to walk closer to Christ than they were previously. It really reminds me of those guys who left their father and lives to follow Him. Very powerful.

A statement I’ve found to hold true:

People leave the Catholic Church because of some kind of event in their lives, or a dislike of something in the Church. People join the Catholic Church because they are seeking the fullness of Truth.

If the difference isn’t too clear, people don’t leave the Church because they find the fullness of Truth elsewhere.

I think this is a good observation (though I should not admit this).
I am a former Cradle Catholic.
I could share with you TRUTH about my departure from the Catholic Church and make it sound like my case totally refutes what you say.
I could share with you TRUTH about my departure from the Catholic Church and make it sound like my case supports what you say.

Let me share.
I left the Catholic Church WITHOUT a concept of what I had before I left. I was part of a “Catholic Community.” I have had strong Catholics point to the self-appellation, “Catholic Community” as a sign of a liberal wish-washy parish. I have fond memories of my former parish, my parents are still members, and the priest is a wonderful God-fearing man. But, the uniqueness of Catholicism was not something that shown through. I can remember thinking that others didn’t take their Catholicism as seriously as I did, but I truly believe there is evidence of the “beam in my eye” when I said this. Surely I still have a beam. So some of my lack of appreciations for my Catholicism is surely my fault, and some if it is probably the fault of less that wonderful catechesis.

So, I left that which I did not appreciate as much as I even do now.

After a little exploration of Protestant churches, I found myself attending mass some and the local CoJCoLDS some. I had no idea that to partake of the Eucharist after missing the previous week was a problem or … Eventually I became committed to the CoJCoLDS and was baptized. I mentioned my “logical pillar” conversion earlier in this thread.

As a LDS I drank deeply of all the intellectual STUFF I could find. I looked at arguments for and arguments against the CoJCoLDS. The belief that Joseph couldn’t do it and the devil wouldn’t do it was absolute through all of this UNTIL…
A Protestant friend of mine offered a reason why the devil MIGHT do it (never seemed likely, but no longer was this pillar an absolute for me).

There were some personal Spiritual things that occurred during this time. But, I have always believed that God gave me my intellect and I should use it to seek Him. So, I became very interested in determining what Catholicism had to recommend it. I learned that there was much more to Catholicism than I had any concept of during my time identifying as a Catholic.

That being said, my weighing of the evidence still leaves me as a LDS. I think the truth claims I embrace as a LDS better explain all the evidence I see. My main focus of study has been the early church 100-400 or so & LDS history. I find critics explanations for the Book of Mormon to be wanting and as such the best explanations for it by far is supernatural. I find the simplistic explanations of Peter passing keys to Linus, Cletus, and Clement to be quite wanting too.

Anyway, I think it fair to say that I left to find greater truth. I have followed my intellect every step of the way. That being said, I do not believe I would have given non-Catholic truth claims enough room to grow had I known what I had.

The best response to this post IMO is to commit to loving and catechizing those in your parish. I was loved but not catechized (this being at least partially my own fault). I have heard stories of those who are not loved within their Catholic parish. Some parishes have a hard time taking their hearts and minds off of the Blessed Sacrament to love those who do not KNOW Christ is there. Other parishes may have bigger problems than this, but those other problems are not unique Catholic problems and occur in parishes and wards and …
Charity, TOm

 

[onemangang]

Plain and simple TRUTH

I feel that apart from the Catholic and Orthodox faith, one can NOT have a working epistemology, so it was a decision between the two, all others seem to be social constructs!

Christianity is a revealed religion, you can see God use a social order to preserve and convey who He is, and in-turn who we are as created beings, since the time of Abraham. God has revealed Himself to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ, Christ established a social order to continue His revelation to mankind! He has used this social order (the Church) to be a conduit of His Grace and mercy through the Sacraments, and Word, through Him, with Him, in Him. The Scriptures, History, miracles, Saints, Mystics, logic and reason all bear His witness.

I fall on the side of Catholic, instead of Eastern Orthodox for a number of reasons, though I find many of their arguments persuasive. Pray for unity between the EO and Catholic Churches!

 

[Della]

Della,
At the risk of sounding combative – and that is not my intent – I don’t believe that, as a Lutheran, I am denying myself all that I could be receiving from God. I know that Catholic teaching is that I am, but I don’t believe that the Catholic Church is authoritative in determining my relationship with God. Having said that, I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic Church, both for the history we share and for its dedication to proclaiming the Gospel. I have said before that if I found it impossible to remain Lutheran I would have to look to the Catholic Church for a new home.

And I didn’t mean to be triumphalistic. Of course, the Church doesn’t claim to have the authority to determine anyone’s relationship with God. I’m sorry if I gave that impression. Rather, what the Church claims is merely what I stated–that within it subsists all the graces necessary for salvation. This does not mean that there is no salvation outside the organized Church. The Catechism clearly states otherwise. So, I am again sorry if I misled you in any way.

As a former non-Catholic (one not in communion with any of its 27 rites, ordinariates, sub juris, etc.) I understand how all the baptized are in communion with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. So, I am not at all saying that non-Catholics have no place in the household of God. Rather, I am saying that within the Catholic Church one has an overflowing abundance of grace due to the sacraments, especially Holy Eucharist. Here I cannot be ecumenical, I’m afraid. There is a divide and it is over the meaning of this most holy of sacraments. But I shall not belabor it because I’m sure you know what I mean.

By referring to the Anglican Ordinariate, I was hinting, rather poorly I’m afraid, that it may be possible that such a way might be made for traditional Lutherans to reunite with the Church. I think it would be wonderful, for your liturgy is so close to ours and we both really do hold to the same meaning of saving grace. Let us pray that a way will be made, be an ordinariate or however God chooses to bring us into full fellowship again.

 

[ffg]

I think this is a good observation (though I should not admit this).
I am a former Cradle Catholic.
I could share with you TRUTH about my departure from the Catholic Church and make it sound like my case totally refutes what you say.
I could share with you TRUTH about my departure from the Catholic Church and make it sound like my case supports what you say.

Anyway, I think it fair to say that I left to find greater truth. I have followed my intellect every step of the way. That being said, I do not believe I would have given non-Catholic truth claims enough room to grow had I known what I had.

The best response to this post IMO is to commit to loving and catechizing those in your parish. I was loved but not catechized (this being at least partially my own fault). I have heard stories of those who are not loved within their Catholic parish. Some parishes have a hard time taking their hearts and minds off of the Blessed Sacrament to love those who do not KNOW Christ is there. Other parishes may have bigger problems than this, but those other problems are not unique Catholic problems and occur in parishes and wards and …
Charity, TOm

TOm - Thanks for sharing. You sound like a person that did a lot of soul searching and does a lot of good reading.

It’s too bad your life experience wasn’t great in the Church. I had a bad experience that kept me away from confession for years. In reality it was my pride that kept me away from the sacrament. People are not perfect, even priests.

I think that I could have been more specific on defining what I meant by truth. It is funny because, I come to this website obviously thinking ‘Catholic’ so leaving information out like who Thomas was and what I mean when I say truth. I’m thinking “well, people are on a Catholic site, so they’ll know what I mean”.

oops.

So as my life experience with confession is true. That life experience truth is not the kind of truth I’m thinking about when I say the comment above about movement in and out of the Church.

I’m talking about, if there is a true answer when you add 1 thing to 1 other of the same type of thing, you get 2 things.

As this is truth, there must be truth in other areas than math. This being the case and truth not being divisible, there must be 1 truth and 1 faith that teaches it.

That’s not to say that other faith’s don’t teach some truth as all faith has to come from somewhere. Thus I like the term “fullness of Truth”

Watching the Catholicism series a bit last night, I liked that a priest said all religions of the world have some truth. He mentioned Truth is like sunlight.

I thought about that comment like this - The equator get’s it 100%, alaska in the winter, not so much.

Take care,

 

[LivingWaters7]

I am a LDS.
When I joined the CoJCoLDS, I joined based mostly on what I called “logical pillars.” There were a couple of interlocking reasons that lead me to believe that God was at the head of the CoJCoLDS. I still believe these things to be strong supports but not as totally unassailable as I once believed them to be.
When these “logical pillars” were shook, I needed what LDS typically call a testimony. God did not give this to me all at once, but I now have what a LDS would call a “spiritual confirmation” that I am in God’s church. God has continued to provide me with similar experience over the years.
During my period of doubt I began researching other religions and looking closely at Catholicism. My weighing of the evidence leads me to the conclusion that the CoJCoLDS as a restoration and Catholicism as no longer possessing Christ’s authority is a more reasoned conclusion than the alternative. That being said, I try to acknowledge that my “weighing of evidence” could be wrong. I can also say, positively toward the Catholic Church, that without the CoJCoLDS, I would not be a “Restorationist-in-waiting.”
I am thankful that my intellect and my spiritual witness point in the same direction. This is true of many folks I know, but it is not true for everyone.
Charity, TOm

I always saw the LDS faith as the quintessential American faith. People tend to believe in it for subjective reasons, which post-enlightenment philosophy emphasized over the Scholastic tradition that emphasizes that God can be known through interaction with external things. It would take quite the mystical experience to get me to go back because God knows there are plenty of reasons not to believe in the LDS faith. You are the first person I have heard claim to believe because of “logical pillars.”

I, like Tom, also joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because of “intellectual pillars” (and there are many others that did and do as well, FWIW), in addition to a witness of the Holy Ghost. I heavily researched the Latter-day Saint faith, reading anything I could, from both sides of the fence. In addition to reading books, articles, etc by Latter-day Saint apologists, I also read articles and books by critics, including material on Catholic.com, the “Inside Mormonism” book by Isaiah Bennett (still have it), the Tanners, even CARM. I was familiar with all of the critical material and the arguments against the LDS faith prior to my conversion (I even read the temple endowment material online) I read a lot of what the ancient Jews and Christians also believed.

In the end, after much study and fervent prayer to God, I came to believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church, with Christ at the Head, and that the fulness of Christ’s Gospel has been restored, with all of His blessings available to us.

Thanks for listening.