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Apotheoun
Guest
No, as an Eastern Catholic I personally do not accept the CCEO as valid (see my comments above).
God bless,
Todd
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God bless,
Todd
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Alexios
Guest
Ghosty,
I just don’t see the way around divorce. Ecclesiastical tribunals doling out divorces exist in Eastern Orthodoxy, with official sanction. Divorce is clearly practiced, accepted, and officially sanctioned, something the Catholic Church finds incompatible with the Faith. As for the variance of opinion in Eastern Orthodoxy concerning contraception, I would agree that one exists, but one view seems just as good as another, and a person cannot seem to p(name removed by moderator)oint which is the orthodox view and which are not. This may be no big deal to the Eastern Orthodox who may believe there can be leeway on matters such as these, but Catholicism sees it differently. Again, there seems to be no official Orthodox view of “artificial contraception is wrong in all circumstances,” but rather, like you said, quite a range of opinions. As far as divorce goes, I actually do not see the variance, since I don’t know of any canonical Orthodox Churches which do not accept ecclesiastical divorces as being theoretically acceptable. These things are incompatible with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Faith, and so I do not see how an Orthodox Catholic can accept “all those things which Eastern Orthodox teaches.” Maybe I am missing something, and I welcome more responses.
I just don’t see the way around divorce. Ecclesiastical tribunals doling out divorces exist in Eastern Orthodoxy, with official sanction. Divorce is clearly practiced, accepted, and officially sanctioned, something the Catholic Church finds incompatible with the Faith. As for the variance of opinion in Eastern Orthodoxy concerning contraception, I would agree that one exists, but one view seems just as good as another, and a person cannot seem to p(name removed by moderator)oint which is the orthodox view and which are not. This may be no big deal to the Eastern Orthodox who may believe there can be leeway on matters such as these, but Catholicism sees it differently. Again, there seems to be no official Orthodox view of “artificial contraception is wrong in all circumstances,” but rather, like you said, quite a range of opinions. As far as divorce goes, I actually do not see the variance, since I don’t know of any canonical Orthodox Churches which do not accept ecclesiastical divorces as being theoretically acceptable. These things are incompatible with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Faith, and so I do not see how an Orthodox Catholic can accept “all those things which Eastern Orthodox teaches.” Maybe I am missing something, and I welcome more responses.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
That seems rather odd. Even if they are transitory in nature, they are in effect and binding upon the faithful. There is no wiggle room in that.
How can one say that they are in real and true union with the Pope of Rome, if they simply refuse to accept the canon that is currently in force for the Eastern Churches.
They are canons. They aren’t optional.
The Patriarch may have said it is against tradition, he is not speaking for teh universal Church, as he has submitted to the Pope. Even if a particular Bishop or Patirarch has an opinion as to whether or not they are intermediate, that still does not abrogate the fact that your Sui Juris Church is under this canon.
Nowhere does the patriarch state that the Melkite Church is not under obligation to submit to this canon. To do so would be a schismatic act that would place the Melkite Church in schism with the universal Church that recognizes the authority of this canon.
So, to state that you do not accept it and use the Patriarch’s reasoning is to put words into the mouth of the Melkite Patriarch that he did not state.
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Apotheoun
Guest
The canons of the CCEO, which are in most cases identical to the canons of the modern CIC (1983), have no real impact on the daily life of ordinary members of the Eastern Catholic Churches. They are irrelevant to me personally.
Thank you for expressing your opinion on the matter, but we will have to agree to disagree.
God bless,
Todd
P.S. - The Melkite Patriarch, in coordination with the Council of Eastern Patriarchs, “. . . issued a statement in which a more real autonomy is required for our Eastern Churches, together with an urgent revision of the recently promulgated Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, and also a new modality of mutual relations (of the Eastern Churches with Rome, and of Rome with the Eastern Churches), not based upon authority, but characterized by, consent and reciprocal consultations” [Melkite Patriarch Grégoire III LAHAM, *From Unia to Koinonia, 28 May 2002].
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East_and_West
Guest
You don’t accept your own Code of Cannon Law as valid?
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East_and_West
Guest
Todd, I will pray for you. Not submitting to the Code of Cannon law is dangerous.
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Apotheoun
Guest
It isn’t “my Code of Canon Law”; instead, it is a Roman imposed document that needs to be “urgently revised.”
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Apotheoun
Guest
Thank you. You have my prayers also.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
Hold on!
Those are 2 completely different things.
Those canons are indeed valid. Where does it say that Eastern Catholics are not bound to them?
It is one thing to say that they have no real impact on the daily members of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It is another thing, completely, to say that you do not accept them as valid.
Those are 2 completely different things.
Those canons are indeed valid. Where does it say that Eastern Catholics are not bound to them?
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Dan-Man916
Guest
And until such a time that this happens, we know that we are always called to be submissive to the Church as it says in Luke 10:16. Are the Bishops or lay people above the canons of the Church?
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Apotheoun
Guest
The CCEO is irrelevant to me, and I am sorry that you cannot accept that fact. Sadly, in the case of the CCEO the canons do not serve the Eastern Catholic faithful; instead, they represent an attempt to impose Latinized forms contrary to the Byzantine tradition upon the Churches of the East.
God bless,
Todd
P.S. - The canons serve the people, and not the other way around.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
I do accept that fact, and I understand that.
However, you have said 2 different things. That the canon is irrelavent is one thing. That you consider it invalid is quite another.
The 2 statements are not the same. It would be one thing to say that you submit to the canons of your Church, but find it completely irrelavent to your everyday faith. But you ahven’t said that, and that is the point I am making.
That may certainly be true enough, but the fact of the matter remains that one cannot simply discount them as invalid.
True enough, and if they are to be discarded, then the legitimate means needs to be pursued. One cannot arbitrarily, on their own declare a canon as invalid. We are Catholic faithful, which means we first submit to our Church and then work to reform the Church where reform is needed.
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East_and_West
Guest
If it comes from Rome, then it is yours.
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Apotheoun
Guest
You may not like that I can “discount” them, but I ignore them because they are irrelevant to my spiritual life. That said, if my eparch wishes to do something about that he can, but I sincerely doubt anyone in my sui juris Church actually cares one way or the other.
As I am sure you already know, the Eastern Churches have never been focused on the idea that the canons are laws, in fact that is simply another Latinization.
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Apotheoun
Guest
Nope.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
I think the real issue is that you said that they were invalid.
DO you mean invalid to say that they are not binding upon Eastern Catholics?
Even if we were to grant that, that does not mean that they are suggestions either that can simply be waved away.
SImply because something may be perceived as a “latinization” does not mean that it is held to be believed by all.
One of the characteristics of ctholicity is that a dogma that is believed in one Church belongs to the whole body. I’m sure you already know that. Therefore, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome is a de fide dogma of the Catholic faith. It is not merely a tradition of the Roman Catholic kind. It is universally binding on all who profess unity with the Bishop of Rome because of the catholicity of the universal Church in which it was promulgated as infallible.
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East_and_West
Guest
Hmmmm. Interesting. This is not Catholic Eccelsiology at all.Nope.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
OH GOODNESS!
I should have proof-read before I posted.
Simply because something may be perceived as a “latinization” does not mean that it is NOT to be believed by all (Catholics).
We are one Church whether our beliefs have a basis in “latinization” or “hellenization”. Personally, i prefer neither of these terms because it sets up an “us vs them” dichotomy, which is not possible in the One Church of Christ.
I should have proof-read before I posted.
Should be:
Simply because something may be perceived as a “latinization” does not mean that it is NOT to be believed by all (Catholics).
We are one Church whether our beliefs have a basis in “latinization” or “hellenization”. Personally, i prefer neither of these terms because it sets up an “us vs them” dichotomy, which is not possible in the One Church of Christ.
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Nyarlathotep
Guest
Well put. I often wonder whether our “two lungs” are respiring through the same trachea!
My family and I attend a Byzantine Catholic (Ruth.) DL every other week, and a NO Mass every other week (long story). I pray equally effectively kneeling as standing, and before statues as icons. The sermons I hear from both pulpits create no cognitive, nor spiritual, dissonance.
Shouldn’t climbing the “ladder” of St. John Climachus lead to the same destination as St. Terese of Avila’s “little way”?
What I know about the Zoghby Initiative is limited to what I’ve gleaned from these threads, but it seems to me that once all the “political” stuff is excised from these schisms, there’s not much left, no?
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marymol
Guest
Today, Aug 13th , Church honoring the martyrdom of two Popes - Sts Pointian and St Hippolytus …
Good to ponder on that scene at the Sea of Tiberias ( ! - like near Tiber ! ) …
St.Peter has become aware of our Lord at the shore and he jumps out , into the 'sea ', in his zeal …may be almost became not visible to the others in the boat , for a while … the boat that is almost 200 cubits away … and the others too come to the shore , with the catch of the 153 fish …to see a fire lit , to a breakfast of ( ? unleavened ) bread and fish …
Soon , we would be celebrating the Feast of Assumption …and for all Catholics of Indian origin, a twin / double celebration of Independance Day too …a people who have seen much through the simple devotion of Rosary …that has the 153 beads and now 200+ times invoking The Mother ( with the addition of the Luminous Mysteries )…
And they come… …St.Thomas and others… …with the catch of fish , in net that is not torn …to a waiting Lord and St Peter …
to be tended and fed … as one flock , in all His truth and Love …to ever hear that voice …‘children …’
May we hope and trust …
Good to ponder on that scene at the Sea of Tiberias ( ! - like near Tiber ! ) …
St.Peter has become aware of our Lord at the shore and he jumps out , into the 'sea ', in his zeal …may be almost became not visible to the others in the boat , for a while … the boat that is almost 200 cubits away … and the others too come to the shore , with the catch of the 153 fish …to see a fire lit , to a breakfast of ( ? unleavened ) bread and fish …
Soon , we would be celebrating the Feast of Assumption …and for all Catholics of Indian origin, a twin / double celebration of Independance Day too …a people who have seen much through the simple devotion of Rosary …that has the 153 beads and now 200+ times invoking The Mother ( with the addition of the Luminous Mysteries )…
And they come… …St.Thomas and others… …with the catch of fish , in net that is not torn …to a waiting Lord and St Peter …
to be tended and fed … as one flock , in all His truth and Love …to ever hear that voice …‘children …’
May we hope and trust …
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