What is your position concerning the concept of hell?

[PJM]

=SSTeacher;4949160]Hi fd,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I converted to Biblical Christianity some nine years ago at which time my worldview hovered somewhere between agnosticism and deism. As far as I’m aware there are no official organizations for agnostics or deists so it’s a matter of thinking things out for yourself. I don’t think the idea of “hell for all eternity” comes naturally. It has to be learned. So perhaps I have some appreciation of how you might have reached your current position.

My dear friend the way to gain this understanding is to contemplate the very Nature of God.

God is and HAS TO BE everything Good, nouthing bad, and is capable of permitting evil, so a Good can be derived from it. (Only God can accomplish this!)

A key element of God’s Perfect Goodness has to do with the fact that God is and has to be perfectly Fair and Perfectly Just. Otherwise he could not, would not be God!

All humanity are sinners, to deny this is beyond ignorance. There are two classiffications of sins. (To sin means to in some way, to say No to God) So there can be sins that are less serious and sins that are more serious. Yes their can be various circunstances and conditions that alter the degree of culpability (guilt) for these sins. But there are just two classes.

Less serious sins, effect how we kive and usually effect others. More serious sins, because of their Nature, can actually seperate us from our relationship with God, until and unless we reconcile with God.

In Divine Justice and Fairness God can’t be “Just and or Fair” and treat both kinds of sins (and sinners) in the same fashion. What kind of justice would that be, and what kind of message would that send?

That, my friend is a summary of why we can believe that God has a place of Reward for those who coperate with His plan for our Salvation, and a place or Retributition for those who chose to ignore Him, ignore His Commandments, His Bible and His Church.

Eterinity is forever and that too reflects God’s Just and Fair Nature.

One does not have to believe it, or believe in God, or believe in Truth; BUT not doing so does not change the reality and the TRUTH! It’s till there and still TRUE

If you don’t mind my asking, do you think you might turn toward corporate worship at some future time or have you settled the matter in your mind?

Could you help me out here? What is “corporate worship”

Inquiringly.
Mick

Love and prayers,

 

[SSTeacher]

Purgatory is actually Hell that comes to an end eventually…

So it hurts like hell but it won’t last forever.

SSTeacher;4947639:

d) Hell is present in the here and now

all of us true Christians are in Purgatory now… which explains d…

I’m not certain that the above is formally correct from a Catholic perspective. Doesn’t the Catholic Church divide the faithful into three separate categories – the Church Militant, which is those here on earth; the Church Triumphant, which is those in heaven; and the Church Suffering, which is those in purgatory (when the coin in the coffer sings…). As I understand it, the Orthodox Church and the Protestant Movement recognize only the first two categories.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;4949040:

I read the rest if it. Very unpleasant reading. Are Catholics required to believe in the visions of people like this?

No.

So in what way is the continued reporting and focus on such stories helpful to Catholics, then?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I read the rest if it. Very unpleasant reading. Are Catholics required to believe in the visions of people like this?

Curiously.
Mick

No ​

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher (with the question directed to jargon631);4949160:

If you don’t mind my asking, do you think you might turn toward corporate worship at some future time or have you settled the matter in your mind?

Could you help me out here? What is “corporate worship”

I asked the question because I was thinking in terms of the difference between a Christian for whom all aspects of his or her religion (and especially worship) must necessarily be communal and a deist who sees it as possible to have a relationship with God without interacting with anybody else.

Informatively,
Mick

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here are some opinions:

a) No such place actually exists
b) It’s just a figurative idea without any reality attached to it
c) It’s total separation from God forever
d) Hell is present in the here and now
e) Only the very wicked people will go to hell
g) It doesn’t matter because there’s no such thing as an afterlife
g) It doesn’t matter because all people will end up in heaven anyway

Feel free to transcribe some sentences detailing the influences that led you to your present opinion.

Grace and peace,
Mick

Not quite sure - somewhere between** a** &** c & g**. ​

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;4949040:

Are Catholics required to believe in the visions of people like this?

No ​

Thanks.

Do you believe that this particular vision had a godly source?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

hi mick…i came from organised religion…i grew up (13 years) at an sda academy in missouri…it went like this…sda…non-theist…agnostic…sort of deist(good call btw)…i feel closer to god now than i ever did before…i DO understand and respect the fellowship that others derive from affiliation with a faith…my experience , however, was not good…

                            regards

                                 frederick

Hi Frederick,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you, Saint James tells us. I’m glad that you now feel closer to God than ever before.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Thanks.

Do you believe that this particular vision had a godly source?

Respectfully,
Mick

I’ve not read any of her Diary, nor given it much thought Since one cannot investigate everything, my view is that the way in which the Church officially treats her Diary, by letting it be published unhindered, amounts to a declaration that it contains nothing doctrinally erroneous. But as I say, I really know very little about her or it.​

There have been all sorts of visions throughout the years, of Hell & of other things - I’m not really interested in that kind of thing.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;4947639:

a) No such place actually exists
b) It’s just a figurative idea without any reality attached to it
c) It’s total separation from God forever
d) Hell is present in the here and now
e) Only the very wicked people will go to hell
g) It doesn’t matter because there’s no such thing as an afterlife
g) It doesn’t matter because all people will end up in heaven anyway

Not quite sure - somewhere between** a** &** c & g**. ​

I’ve learned c but I’d like to believe a and g – that’s the final g not the penultimate one. Until I’ve learned my ABCs, it’s quite pointless asking me.

Thanks for being so honest.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

have you been to the threads about there possibly being more women in Hell than men?

No, sorry.

i tend to agree w/ George Bush 1… No, wait, it was the prime minister of Canada i agree with… He said that (like GB’s wife) his wife also held grudges… then he asked something like: Do you think its because women are less forgiving?

Interesting question. Do you think the dispositions of the wives of politicians should be taken as a true representation of women in general?

… some of the most unforgiving people i know are women.

Sadly, that’s been my life experience as well.

but also, as stated on that thread…
more men may be in Heaven because they face death more than women do (war…)…

I’ve never considered such a scenario but if you know there’s a strong possibility that you’re going to die it seems natural that you would want to make peace with God.

I also tend to think women worship their spouses more than vice versa…

I’ll pass that on to my wife (if I can get a word in).

Jovially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

g) It doesn’t matter because all people will end up in heaven anyway

Yea right:nope: Like that is fair and JUSt right! NOT!

I think there is a reasonable case to be made for universalism being just and fair. Here’s what the late Bible scholar, William Barclay, wrote in his autobiography:

I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: “I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: “God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all” (Romans 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Corinthians 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and of Christ Jesus “who gave himself as a ransom for all“(1 Timothy 2:4–6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato – who may have invented the word – plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Corinthians 15:24–28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God – and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father – he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pages 58–61, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1975.

Does anything Barclay wrote here resonate with you, PJM?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[planten]

**The Muslims view:

Our prophet was shown the inmates of hell and he reported more women in hell then the men. The reason he gave was the thanklessness of women, or some other such thing.

Now, about hell. It is real, in the afterlife only. But signs of hell and heavens start appearing in this life. They are not the real and ultimate signs, only indicators.

Hell is meant for purification, cleansing. While heavens is forever, hell is not forever. The prophet Muhammad said "A day will come when hell will be empty and the sweet morning breeze will rattle the doors of empty hell. (I could not present / convey the meaning properly).

Purgatory is different to hell if I understand it correctly. I have forgotten the Arabic word for purgatory. ( I just remembered. It is called Barzakh. That is a place in which all souls will remain after leaving this worldly life till the day of judgement).

We believe that when a man/woman dies, the angel comes to take the soul away, at that time also the dead one is shown some kind of good/bad treatment or information leading to his/her final abode. The conditions of life in this world are nowhere near to the real life in hell or heavens.

It is written in Quran (and also supported by a Hadith) that:

“No one knows the good gifts that Allah has prepared in heavens, for the believers. No eye has seen those good things. No tongue has tasted those things and no heart has imagined those things.” It appears that those good things in heavens will the food for the soul. They will be spiritual matters.

This world is an examination room. Real result will be declared in afterlife.

Briefly:

1. Hell is not forever.
2. Eventually, hell will be empty.
3. All mankind will be in heavens.

Wassalam, (shalom)
planten.**

 

[SSTeacher]

**The Muslims view:

Our prophet was shown the inmates of hell and he reported more women in hell then the men. The reason he gave was the thanklessness of women, or some other such thing.

Now, about hell. It is real, in the afterlife only. But signs of hell and heavens start appearing in this life. They are not the real and ultimate signs, only indicators.

Hell is meant for purification, cleansing. While heavens is forever, hell is not forever. The prophet Muhammad said "A day will come when hell will be empty and the sweet morning breeze will rattle the doors of empty hell. (I could not present / convey the meaning properly).

Purgatory is different to hell if I understand it correctly. I have forgotten the Arabic word for purgatory.

We believe that when a man/woman dies, the angel comes to take the soul away, at that time also the dead one is shown some kind of good/bad treatment or information leading to his final abode. The conditions of life in this world are nowhere near to the real life in hell or heavens.

It is written in Quran (and also supported by a Hadith) that:

“No one knows the good gifts that Allah has prepared for the believers. No eye has seen thos egood things and no heart has imagined those things.” It appears that those good things will the food for the soul. They will be spiritual matters.

Briefly:

1. Hell is not forever.
2. Eventually, hell will be empty.
3. All mankind will be in heavens.

Wassalam, (shalom)
planten.**

Planten,

Thanks. That’s very enlightening.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[Snerticus]

It is written in Quran (and also supported by a Hadith) that:

"No one knows the good gifts that Allah has prepared in heavens, for the believers. No eye has seen those good things. No tongue has tasted those things and no heart has imagined those things." It appears that those good things in heavens will the food for the soul. They will be spiritual matters.

Wassalam, (shalom)
planten.

Hmmm, this sounds pecularly like 1 Cor 2:9 :

but it is as scripture says: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, what the mind of man cannot visualise; all that God has prepared for those who love him;

 

[c659smith]

**The Muslims view:

Our prophet was shown the inmates of hell and he reported more women in hell then the men. The reason he gave was the thanklessness of women, or some other such thing.

Now, about hell. It is real, in the afterlife only. But signs of hell and heavens start appearing in this life. They are not the real and ultimate signs, only indicators.

Hell is meant for purification, cleansing. While heavens is forever, hell is not forever. The prophet Muhammad said "A day will come when hell will be empty and the sweet morning breeze will rattle the doors of empty hell. (I could not present / convey the meaning properly).

Purgatory is different to hell if I understand it correctly. I have forgotten the Arabic word for purgatory. ( I just remembered. It is called Barzakh. That is a place in which all souls will remain after leaving this worldly life till the day of judgement).

We believe that when a man/woman dies, the angel comes to take the soul away, at that time also the dead one is shown some kind of good/bad treatment or information leading to his/her final abode. The conditions of life in this world are nowhere near to the real life in hell or heavens.

It is written in Quran (and also supported by a Hadith) that:

“No one knows the good gifts that Allah has prepared in heavens, for the believers. No eye has seen those good things. No tongue has tasted those things and no heart has imagined those things.” It appears that those good things in heavens will the food for the soul. They will be spiritual matters.

This world is an examination room. Real result will be declared in afterlife.

Briefly:

1. Hell is not forever.
2. Eventually, hell will be empty.
3. All mankind will be in heavens.

Wassalam, (shalom)
planten.**

So where is the devil and his legion of demons going to be when hell ceases to exist?

 

[Trishie]

My understanding of hell?..

If a person finally and completely rejects God in death, then they are rejecting God’s love and light and goodness and beauty and joy.

By their choice they are thereby devoid of love, light, goodness, beauty, and joy.

That is hell for beings intended for unity in the presence the God of love, light, goodness, beauty and joy.

 

[SSTeacher]

So where is the devil and his legion of demons going to be when hell ceases to exist?

Well, if all men will be gathered into the love of God then why not demons also?

Speculatively,
Mick

 

[c659smith]

Well, if all men will be gathered into the love of God then why not demons also?

Speculatively,
Mick

where do you get his?

They will be gathered true.

and will be seperated into two groups

As Sheep and Goats

Where do the goats go?

 

[SSTeacher]

My understanding of hell?..

If a person finally and completely rejects God in death, then they are rejecting God’s love and light and goodness and beauty and joy.

By their choice they are thereby devoid of love, light, goodness, beauty, and joy.

That is hell for beings intended for unity in the presence the God of love, light, goodness, beauty and joy.

Hi Trishie,

It seems to me that anybody who chooses eternal torment over eternal bliss must be at least a few sandwiches short of a picnic. Indeed, it’s more likely that such a person would be completely insane. However, assuming it is a reasoned choice, why do you think people choose to go to hell?

Curiously,
Mick