What is your position concerning the concept of hell?

[SSTeacher]

where do you get his?

They will be gathered true.

and will be seperated into two groups

As Sheep and Goats

Where do the goats go?

Matthew 25:46: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Barclay’s argument is as follows:

One of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato – who may have invented the word – plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

If I understand Barclay correctly, the suggestion is that the goats would go away to the kind of punishment “which only God can give,” (whatever that would entail) but it would not be eternal as we understand the word.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[LittleSage]

[SIGN]If you’re easily offended please don’t read my answer: [/SIGN]

[SIGN]You sure?[/SIGN]

[SIGN]Okie dokie. You asked![/SIGN]

Hell, in my opinion, is a scare tactic to convince people to lead good Christian lives. By this I mean the moralities that are uniquely Christian, that most other people would disagree with, as well as just becoming a Christian in general. This is how it was for me: When I was a kid, if I ever asked a question someone didn’t like, Hell was dangled at me to hush me up. Also when I listened to rock music.

Sorry, but that’s just how I feel.

 

[c659smith]

Matthew 25:46: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Barclay’s argument is as follows:

One of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato – who may have invented the word – plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

If I understand Barclay correctly, the suggestion is that the goats would go away to the kind of punishment “which only God can give,” (whatever that would entail) but it would not be eternal as we understand the word.

Helpfully,
Mick

Sounds like poppycock to me. I think Barclay is searching real hard to be of this earth and not from it. Other Scripture O.T. and N.T. does not conjeal with this definition. Eternal is eternal. Plato is playing with the mind.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

**The Muslims view:

1. Hell is not forever.
2. Eventually, hell will be empty.
3. All mankind will be in heavens.

**

bro , those who take deity besides God will be in fire forever --that is clearly stated in Quran several times. Among them , hypocrites will be in the lowest level. Few verses:

Indeed, he who associates others with Allaah - Allaah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.[5:72].

And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us): “Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)?”

( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #22)

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #48)

But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #39)

And those who have earned evil deeds, the recompense of an evil deed is the like thereof, and humiliating disgrace will cover them (their faces). No defender will they have from Allah. Their faces will be covered, as it were, with pieces from the darkness of night. They are dwellers of the Fire, they will abide therein forever.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #27)

 

[SSTeacher]

Sounds like poppycock to me.

Do you happen to know the Greek for poppycock?

I think Barclay is searching real hard to be of this earth and not from it.

Barclay was something of an enigma. He was extremely knowledgeable and made Bible reading interesting and fun – a sort of C. S. Lewis for Bible types – yet he did not believe in the divinity of Christ and in his commentaries usually tried to find a “natural cause” in order to explain away the miracles Jesus performed. Nevertheless, for Barclay the love of God was paramount. Some further insight into the man can be gleaned from his reaction to a particular radio listener. This is how he described it in his autobiography:

The BBC asked me to do a week’s “ten to eight” in the morning talks on radio, and they asked me to take as a subject the modern approach to the miracles of Jesus. It was not a subject which I myself would have chosen, but I agreed to do it. The line I took was a line that I have always taken. I have always felt that Jesus is to be regarded, not as a person who did things nineteen hundred years ago, but as a person who does things now. I therefore said that the miracles were often not so much stories of what Jesus once did, but symbols of what he still can do. I spoke of the stilling of the storm, and I said that if Jesus did still a storm on the Lake of Galilee in AD 28, it meant very little to me. But it is different if the lesson of the story is that in any storm of life there is in the presence of Jesus confidence and calm, that the storms Jesus stills are in the hearts of men, so that, no matter what tempest of trouble or pain or sorrow may blow upon life, with him there is calm. On the last day of the week instead of a talk I was interviewed by David Winter. He asked me how I had come to this way of looking at things. I told him the truth. I told him that some years ago our twenty–one year old daughter and the lad to whom she would some day have been married were both drowned in a yachting accident. I said that God did not stop that accident at sea, but he did still the storm in my own heart, so that somehow my wife and I came through that terrible time still on our own two feet. The letters after the broadcast began to come in, and there came an anonymous letter from Northern Ireland: “Dear Doctor Barclay, I know now why God killed your daughter; it was to save her from being corrupted by your heresies.

Barclay went to say this:

If I had that writer’s address, I would have written back, not in anger – the inevitable blaze of anger was over in a flash – but in pity, and I would have said to him as John Wesley said to someone: “Your God is my devil.” The day my daughter was lost at sea there was sorrow in the heart of God.

William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pages 45–46
William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1975.

Other Scripture O.T. and N.T. does not conjeal with this definition.

I agree. The case cannot be proved one way or the other from Scripture.

Eternal is eternal.

Well, Barclay believed that hell might not last forever and he’s given his reasoning. It’s therfore incumbent upon his adversaries to tackle his argument.

Plato is playing with the mind.

Ah, those Greek philosophers. Diogenes couldn’t get along with them, either.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

bro , those who take deity besides God will be in fire forever --that is clearly stated in Quran several times. Among them , hypocrites will be in the lowest level. Few verses:

Indeed, he who associates others with Allaah - Allaah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.[5:72].

And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us): “Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)?”

( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #22)

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #48)

But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #39)

And those who have earned evil deeds, the recompense of an evil deed is the like thereof, and humiliating disgrace will cover them (their faces). No defender will they have from Allah. Their faces will be covered, as it were, with pieces from the darkness of night. They are dwellers of the Fire, they will abide therein forever.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #27)

Hi Muslim Woman,

So are you asserting that the information planten supplied i.e. that hell is not forever and will eventually be empty and that all mankind will be in heaven does not represent the correct Islamic understanding?

Bewilderedly,
Mick

 

[jargon631]

QUOTE=LittleSage;
When I was a kid, if I ever asked a question someone didn’t like, Hell was dangled at me to hush me up. Also when I listened to rock music.

hi sage…that was my experience also…fd

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

… all mankind will be in heaven does not represent the correct Islamic understanding?

Those who rejected oneness of God & worshipped other deities besides God , if they die without sincere repentance , their only punishment is eternal fire. At least that what I understood after reading Quran .

 

[algebra]

There is no fiery hell. Its metaphorical.

 

[SSTeacher]

There is no fiery hell. Its metaphorical.

How do you know that?

Wonderingly,
Mick

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

There is no fiery hell. Its metaphorical.

someone told Caliph Ali (ra) that you are wrong , there is no hereafter . Ali (ra) replied , if I am wrong & you are right , there is no fear for any of us. But what if you are wrong & I am right ? What will happen to disbelievers ?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

There is no fiery hell. Its metaphorical.

Your begging the question…

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

And with Barclay quoting Origen he probably should’ve been more careful in his study. Origen, as bright and intelligent as he was, towards the end of his life began to get a little heretical in some of his ideas. Later councils began to denounce some of his writings and I believe this notion of universalism is one of them.

Just advising a little caution…

 

[SSTeacher]

1. Hell is not forever.
2. Eventually, hell will be empty.
3. All mankind will be in heavens.

SSTeacher;4951675:

…all mankind will be in heaven does not represent the correct Islamic understanding?

Those who rejected oneness of God & worshipped other deities besides God , if they die without sincere repentance , their only punishment is eternal fire. At least that what I understood after reading Quran.

Hello again, Muslim Woman,

Thanks for your contribution. It seems to me that planten is declaring one thing and you’re declaring the opposite so let me ask this. How do Muslims come to understand the tenets of their faith? Is there an authority that is universally recognized inside Islam to which disputed questions can be referred for clarification in order that the clarification may be elevated to the category of doctrine which must be believed?

Inquiringly,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

And with Barclay quoting Origen he probably should’ve been more careful in his study. Origen, as bright and intelligent as he was, towards the end of his life began to get a little heretical in some of his ideas. Later councils began to denounce some of his writings and I believe this notion of universalism is one of them.

Just advising a little caution…

Yes, caution is always advisable. However, in his autobiography, Barclay didn’t actually quote Origen. What Barclay wrote was this:

I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

Barclay merely noted that he and Origen had both struggled with this issue, describing it as “no easy thing.”

Cordially,
Mick

 

[distracted]

So it hurts like hell but it won’t last forever.

I’m not certain that the above is formally correct from a Catholic perspective. Doesn’t the Catholic Church divide the faithful into three separate categories – the Church Militant, which is those here on earth; the Church Triumphant, which is those in heaven; and the Church Suffering, which is those in purgatory (when the coin in the coffer sings…). As I understand it, the Orthodox Church and the Protestant Movement recognize only the first two categories.

Grace and peace,
Mick

well… i can (and do) refuse to acknowledge both death and taxes…

but you can imagine how far that gets me…

 

[SSTeacher]

LittleSage;4950919:

When I was a kid, if I ever asked a question someone didn’t like, Hell was dangled at me to hush me up. Also when I listened to rock music.

hi sage…that was my experience also…fd

What kind of questions did you ask? Were your questions entirely innocent and innocuous or were they questions you knew were guaranteed to annoy? How did the exchanges go? Did you ask for candy whereupon you were told to hush or you’d be thrown into the lake of fire? Or did you rebel and habitually do things that you were sure would irritate those in authority over you (like me and, I daresay, more than a few others on this forum) and (for example) purposefully play your music loud so as to annoy the adults?

Nostalgically,
Mick

 

[PJM]

=SSTeacher;4950129]So in what way is the continued reporting and focus on such stories helpful to Catholics, then?

Respectfully,
Mick

**QUOTE]**What is your position concerning the concept of hell?

It seems that the only ONE to whom this is a “concept” is God. To the rest of us it is or at least it will become a reality. (No I’m not saying we are all going to Hell!, but even those in Purgatory and Heaven shall be certain of hell’s existence.)

The stories have a benefit as a reminder of the end times, and the Necessary Justice of a God who cannot show partiallity. God willing, a soul or souls may be brought to conversion through such repetition. “Father not My Will , but Thine be done!”

 

[jargon631]

What kind of questions did you ask? Were your questions entirely innocent and innocuous or were they questions you knew were guaranteed to annoy? How did the exchanges go? Did you ask for candy whereupon you were told to hush or you’d be thrown into the lake of fire? Or did you rebel and habitually do things that you were sure would irritate those in authority over you (like me and, I daresay, more than a few others on this forum) and (for example) purposefully play your music loud so as to annoy the adults?

Nostalgically,
Mick

well…they were questions adressing my doubts as to church doctrine…there was a lot of physical abise in my family, so even asking the questions took a lot of guts…no matter how meekly the questions were asked, i was usually beaten for doing so…i was too terrified to do ANYTHING that would knowingly annoy an adult…they would go to my mother and i was doomed…that attitude on the part of the faculty was key in my rejection of christianity…i also learned the hard way not to approach anyone regarding the abuse(broken fingers,bleeding welts, face jabbed with needles, to name a few)…that was THE main cause for my initial bout with atheism…i was told of a loving god, yet these things were done to me by people that were supposed to be his followers…since the chief torturer was my mother (who was also vice-principal), the point was moot…if i didnt accept her view on christianity i was beaten even more…is it any wonder that i have rejected religion in all its forms?..fd

 

[SSTeacher]

well…they were questions adressing my doubts as to church doctrine…there was a lot of physical abise in my family, so even asking the questions took a lot of guts…no matter how meekly the questions were asked, i was usually beaten for doing so…i was too terrified to do ANYTHING that would knowingly annoy an adult…they would go to my mother and i was doomed…that attitude on the part of the faculty was key in my rejection of christianity…i also learned the hard way not to approach anyone regarding the abuse(broken fingers,bleeding welts, face jabbed with needles, to name a few)…that was THE main cause for my initial bout with atheism…i was told of a loving god, yet these things were done to me by people that were supposed to be his followers…since the chief torturer was my mother (who was also vice-principal), the point was moot…if i didnt accept her view on christianity i was beaten even more…is it any wonder that i have rejected religion in all its forms?..fd

Frederick,

I’m very sorry to learn of the cruelty you experienced. It isn’t any wonder to me that you have rejected religion in all its forms. I’d doubtless have done the same.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye: