What is your source?

[Psychotheosophy]

Why should we trust,
The writings of any of the saints,
Such as St. John of the Cross,
Or St. Thomas Aquinas?

Why should we trust,
The word of anyone?

 

[Julian0404]

To the extent that someone say’s I WILL DO THIS OR THAT, and they do complete their word, they “earn” our trust going forward. Not knowing them, we “expected” them to behave as they promised, if they would not, they lose our trust.
St. John and the Cross and St. Augustine by their words, and lives (actions) they have lived what they have taught, and after thousands of students have studied and read what they wrote, they have “earned” our trust. Their words have proven to be true. Their actions have completed what they proclaimed.

 

[fermat]

Because of the lives they led. If you lead a holy and virtuous life, I am going to tend to trust what you say.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Why should we trust the word of anyone?

Why should we trust the word of Einstein on physics? Or Wolfgang Puck on cooking? Or Vince Lombardi on coaching?

These people are experts in the fields that they have devoted themselves to.

The Saints have devoted themselves to God, and they are experts in that field (as much as a human can be an expert on God - but surely they are more expert than I). So I tend to defer to their wisdom.

 

[JustaServant]

Why should we trust,
The writings of any of the saints,
Such as St. John of the Cross,
Or St. Thomas Aquinas?

Why should we trust,
The word of anyone?

Why should we trust yours?

 

[Scoobyshme]

Why should we trust,
The writings of any of the saints,
Such as St. John of the Cross,
Or St. Thomas Aquinas?

Why should we trust,
The word of anyone?

We trust them only when the Church says to trust them. The Catholic Church, remember, is the “pillar and foundation of truth” according to 1 Tim 3:15. But, then again, why trust the Bible? Same answer. Because the Catholic Church, which assembled the Bible, and set the Canon, says so. It is to this Church that Christ gave His authority and promised that “the gates of hell” would never “prevail” over. Either He was telling the truth, or He wasn’t. If He wasn’t, then we’re all wasting our time. I’m convinced that He was telling the truth. How 'bout you?

 

[redhen]

Why should we trust the word of Einstein on physics? Or Wolfgang Puck on cooking? Or Vince Lombardi on coaching?

These people are experts in the fields that they have devoted themselves to.

The Saints have devoted themselves to God, and they are experts in that field (as much as a human can be an expert on God - but surely they are more expert than I). So I tend to defer to their wisdom.

But there are Rabbis, Imams, and mystics from other Abrahamic religions, that also claim to know what God wants. Why are these “experts” dismissed?

With the examples you gave of experts in physics, cooking and coaching, we can verify their expertise and knowledge against the measure of the natural sciences. When it comes to theology or philosophy, there is no such measuring stick, so everyone’s opinions and observations are just as valid as the next guy’s.

 

[StrawberryJam]

What is consistant and repeatable and within our experience.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

To the extent that someone say’s I WILL DO THIS OR THAT, and they do complete their word, they “earn” our trust going forward.

Because of the lives they led. If you lead a holy and virtuous life, I am going to tend to trust what you say.

So,

We can only trust the word of someone
Until after they have completed
It’s correlated action?

What if we need to know immediately?

Not knowing them, we “expected” them to behave as they promised, if they would not, they lose our trust.

If we need to know immediately,
We should always trust them?

St. John and the Cross and St. Augustine by their words, and lives (actions) they have lived what they have taught, and after thousands of students have studied and read what they wrote, they have “earned” our trust. Their words have proven to be true.

So,
Truth is a popular vote?

Why should we trust the word of Einstein on physics? Or Wolfgang Puck on cooking? Or Vince Lombardi on coaching?

These people are experts in the fields that they have devoted themselves to.

The Saints have devoted themselves to God, and they are experts in that field (as much as a human can be an expert on God - but surely they are more expert than I). So I tend to defer to their wisdom.

Are there any principles
Of physics, cooking, or coaching,
Upon which all the experts,
In each field,
Agree?

Is there a philosophy of science?

Do you know,
If the Catholic Church
Created the scientific method?

We trust them only when the Church says to trust them. The Catholic Church, remember, is the “pillar and foundation of truth” according to 1 Tim 3:15. But, then again, why trust the Bible? Same answer. Because the Catholic Church, which assembled the Bible, and set the Canon, says so. It is to this Church that Christ gave His authority and promised that “the gates of hell” would never “prevail” over. Either He was telling the truth, or He wasn’t. If He wasn’t, then we’re all wasting our time. I’m convinced that He was telling the truth. How 'bout you?

What is the difference,
Between the Church,
And God?

But there are Rabbis, Imams, and mystics from other Abrahamic religions, that also claim to know what God wants. Why are these “experts” dismissed?

Are there common principles,
Between these religions?

What is consistant and repeatable and within our experience.

Is this the philosophy,
Behind the scientific method?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I know, I know. Catholics were behind the scientific method.

I saw the Catholics Come Home commercials.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But there are Rabbis, Imams, and mystics from other Abrahamic religions, that also claim to know what God wants. Why are these “experts” dismissed?

Well, we do have an objective way to compare the Saints to other religious advocates - look at the lives they have led. Sure, every religion has righteous folk, but no other religion can even approach the astonishing example of the body of canonized Saints. In fact, most religious would be hard-pressed to come up with just one “saint” of their own who could measure up.

 

[redhen]

Well, we do have an objective way to compare the Saints to other religious advocates - look at the lives they have led. Sure, every religion has righteous folk, but no other religion can even approach the astonishing example of the body of canonized Saints. In fact, most religious would be hard-pressed to come up with just one “saint” of their own who could measure up.

Buddhism has several varieties of saints; buddhas, bodhisatvas, arhats, siddhas, each of which is numberless.

books.google.ca/books?id=0TMsdV8lS8wC&dq=buddhist+saints&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=SMs7DC8JJi&sig=wQMQT4MCLZ5ce2NJ5YqDoSrtsAY&hl=en&ei=BgY-S5TICsu6lAebna2eBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[Rick2010]

Why should we trust,
The writings of any of the saints,
Such as St. John of the Cross,
Or St. Thomas Aquinas?

Why should we trust,
The word of anyone?

I do not know that “trust” should be the operative word but, rather, “use” may be better.

For the most part, the saints did not speak infallibly. Often, you will find differences in their theology. Their private revelations are not bound on the faithful. However, the Church has declared that the totality of their lives has put them where we all desire to be: with the Lord. So we look to them for guidance, as role models. We ask their intercessions. We are not bound to agree with every one of the finer theological points of Aquinas. We are bound to believe everything that the Church teaches. And the Church teaches that the Saints have led the kind of lives which ultimately led them to heaven. The Church teaches that they can intercede for us.

So, if you wish to use “trust” as the operative word then I would answer your question by saying that we should trust the saints because we trust the Church. We trust the Church because we trust the Lord. The Body of Christ is one. If the saints are with Him, and we trust Him, then we “trust” them as well.

Rick

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Because of the lives they led. If you lead a holy and virtuous life, I am going to tend to trust what you say.

Actually, what you’re doing is declaring someone a saint and then trusting all subsequent teachings based on your own first assessment.

We don’t trust people because they have been made into gods or icons; we trust them because what they say aligns with reason (if it indeed does).

Why should we trust the word of Einstein on physics? Or Wolfgang Puck on cooking? Or Vince Lombardi on coaching?

These people are experts in the fields that they have devoted themselves to.

The Saints have devoted themselves to God, and they are experts in that field (as much as a human can be an expert on God - but surely they are more expert than I). So I tend to defer to their wisdom.

We trust people like Einstein because his assertions are grounded in logic and his theories and hypotheses are testable and replicable. This isn’t true of the Saints. There is no conceivable way that anyone will ever put Religion (many as there are) on an equal footing with empirical observation and reason.

We trust them only when the Church says to trust them. The Catholic Church, remember, is the “pillar and foundation of truth” according to 1 Tim 3:15. But, then again, why trust the Bible? Same answer. Because the Catholic Church, which assembled the Bible, and set the Canon, says so. It is to this Church that Christ gave His authority and promised that “the gates of hell” would never “prevail” over. Either He was telling the truth, or He wasn’t. If He wasn’t, then we’re all wasting our time. I’m convinced that He was telling the truth. How 'bout you?

*We trust the Saints because we trust the Church because we trust the Bible because we trust the Church. *

In fact, it is never good to trust an infinite regress. What you’re actually describing is two self-supporting pillars beneath which there is no foundation.

In fact, most religious would be hard-pressed to come up with just one “saint” of their own who could measure up.

Perhaps by the standards from which you definied your own Religion’s Saints. Do you see how subjective this stance is?

We should trust the saints because we trust the Church. We trust the Church because we trust the Lord. The Body of Christ is one. If the saints are with Him, and we trust Him, then we “trust” them as well.

More infinite regression.

We ought to trust what we do in the same ways that we do everything else: by inspection, revision, logical deliberation, and endless scrutiny of our own views. The OP is right to raise the concerns he/she has.

 

[Rick2010]

More infinite regression.

We ought to trust what we do in the same ways that we do everything else: by inspection, revision, logical deliberation, and endless scrutiny of our own views. The OP is right to raise the concerns he/she has.

Which is why I prefaced my response by acknowledging that “trust” may not be the perfect word here. But I could only answer the OP as it was phrased. The only trust I give is to Christ and His Church. The first part of my response explains the last. You are correct in the infinite regression possibility. I trust the Lord so I trust His Church. I trust His Church therefore I trust the Saints. I trust the Saints therefore I trust their friends. I trust their friends therefore I trust their friend’s mothers. And on and on. The danger you point out is correct and apt. That is why my brief thoughts posted above imply that this danger should be avoided.

Rick

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

That is why my brief thoughts posted above imply that this danger should be avoided.

How can this be avoided?

 

[Rick2010]

How can this be avoided?

By avoiding it.

They are what they are. They are exemplars. Their lives are for us to emulate, or at least try to. Instead of saying we should trust them, I would just say we should learn from them how to trust God.. What better example of this than the Blessed Virgin?

Some, like Aquinas, are among the world’s great thinkers. We can learn about the world well from him, if we choose to. Others, like Aquinas and Augustine, are great theologians. We can learn a great deal about Scripture from them, if we choose. We can ask for their intercession. All the Saints bring glory to the faithful and the Church.

All I was saying is that I reserve trust for Christ and the magesterial teachings of His Church. There is no reason NOT to trust that the saints, as I said, are exemplars. My answer to the OP was only in the sense of theology and their private revelations. We are not bound to agree with every single word of every single saint. But I do trust that they are wise exemplars who can assist us on our journey toward holiness. Why would that cause an issue?

Rick

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

By avoiding it.

They are what they are. They are exemplars. Their lives are for us to emulate, or at least try to. Instead of saying we should trust them, I would just say we should learn from them how to trust God.. What better example of this than the Blessed Virgin?

Some, like Aquinas, are among the world’s great thinkers. We can learn about the world well from him, if we choose to. Others, like Aquinas and Augustine, are great theologians. We can learn a great deal about Scripture from them, if we choose. We can ask for their intercession. All the Saints bring glory to the faithful and the Church.

All I was saying is that I reserve trust for Christ and the magesterial teachings of His Church. There is no reason NOT to trust that the saints, as I said, are exemplars. My answer to the OP was only in the sense of theology and their private revelations. We are not bound to agree with every single word of every single saint. But I do trust that they are wise exemplars who can assist us on our journey toward holiness. Why would that cause an issue?

Rick

The issue lies in the fact that everything we know about God, in order to pay Him reverence, comes from some holyman or another, whom we trust is exemplar because he embodies the characteristics appreciated by the very God he confesses (and which we subsequently believe in). The issue is that there is no escape from an infinite regression. Saints, the Bible, and God are all supportive of each other in some sense, but nothing supports that we ought to support them in the first place, because we cannot perceive God in any way that is distinct from the plain and natural world.

 

[Rick2010]

My fault for being so lax and not noticing your profile. I was under the impression we were having a discussion about the role of saints. Seems the bottom line the whole time was God.

Therefore, we have now gone beyond the points of the OP. Being new, I do not wish to break protocol and go off on tangents. I guess you can begin a “I don’t believe in God” thread but, with all due respect, I will bow out now unless the discussion goes back to the OP.

Rick

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Fair enough. Although I see this discussion as being related (not even tangentially), it may be a very fruitless dialogue, seeing the tenacity with which most forumers compile responses (perhaps myself included!). We’ve probably made the points that we otherwise were going to.