What is your take on this debate?

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Gaelic_Bard said:
From the few times I’ve been to a Lutheran liturgy, it seems to vary on where you go. The Lutheran church a few miles away is almost indistinguishable from what you’d experience in a Catholic liturgy. In fact, it probably has more traditional rubrics than most Catholic parishes.
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Wish mine did. 😦

What I’ve noticed is that Lutheran homiletics seems to be a middle ground between Catholic and protestant. Catholic priests seem rather brief because, I take it, of the emphasis on the Eucharist (no, I’m not saying Catholics don’t emphasize the word). Many protestants, OTOH, tend to preach quite a bit longer because of an emphasis on the word. Lutherans (should) take great pains to balance word and sacrament.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Wish mine did. 😦

What I’ve noticed is that Lutheran homiletics seems to be a middle ground between Catholic and protestant. Catholic priests seem rather brief because, I take it, of the emphasis on the Eucharist. Many protestants, OTOH, tend to preach quite a bit longer because of an emphasis on the word. Lutherans (should) take great pains to balance word and sacrament.

Jon
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The problem is largely due to our American pragmatism and time management. We believe that if there is a long sermon, then observance of the Supper should be omitted. The same is true the other way around. There should be a lengthy preaching of God’s word and the sacrament!

The only time Americans will sacrifice time is if there is entertainment. i.e…we like the hour of rock music before the sermon. Blech.
 
Tx3bro said:
I went to the protestant church I usually attend with my mother today and on the way home we kind of got in a debate about the catholic church. She was saying she has been to a few masses and they never have preached about salvation when she was there. She was also saying how she believes only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelivent. I told her I agreed with her but that I think the good works idea in the catholic church is evident of a Relationship with god. She agreed however ended it by saying she still believes it is irrelivent, what do you take of this?
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TX,

Don’t argue with your mother. Explain to your mother that as we think and believe so we act. You agree that Jesus is the way to heaven. Explain that as you are going to RCIA that you are learning…

Profession of Faith…and this we believe is a product of Divine Revelation…
Living a Sacramental Life to access grace
Learning Life in Christ/modeling Christ…growing in holiness because our God is Holy
Prayer…asking for help/grace

Explain to your mother that she has touched on a relevant issue that you will learn when studying Life in Christ…explain that you are learning good Habits/Virtues, wanting to know and love God more and more because Faith in Jesus requires you to know all that Christ wants you to know…

In many and various ways God spoke to us through prophets in part and in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son…letter to the Hebrews…

Tell your mom God Spoke through Jesus, all that God wants us to know is known through Jesus and she is correct…you just want to get all that is known that Jesus taught and that heaven is not earth and we all pray to get there…

then give her a big hug and smile…🙂

I suggest you get hold of the Audio Catechism for Adults USA and listen to it over and over and when your mother asks you what you are doing…tell her you are repenting…

Repent=Metanoia=change your mind

and tell her that like Paul says in Romans that you are being transformed by the renewal of your mind so that you can

follow Christ as she believes you should…
 
estesbob said:
You said one who has Faith in Christcwill always follow his commands Thatt would appear to be claiming faith in Jesus Christ trumps free will. If one has the power to accept Jesus at anytime they must also have the power to reject him.
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Actually this is not what Bob said…His statement was…
The idea that a Christian can have faith in Christ and yet ignore the commands that Christ and the apostles lay out in the New Covenant betrays the claim of faith in Christ.

So we do not see in this “will always follow…” that is something quite different.

The Christian in embracing Christ seeks to follow Him and to do the Will of the Father - to keep his commands and to “be perfect as his heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48)…
We may do so imperfectly but we try (hence reconciliation).

The Christian does not say (as the OP’s mom did) that works are irrelevant.

So - if a person says that they have faith - but do not accept the need for works - they are displaying a dead faith…

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Actually this is not what Bob said…His statement was…
The idea that a Christian can have faith in Christ and yet ignore the commands that Christ and the apostles lay out in the New Covenant betrays the claim of faith in Christ.

So we do not see in this “will always follow…” that is something quite different.

The Christian in embracing Christ seeks to follow Him and to do the Will of the Father - to keep his commands and to “be perfect as his heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48)…
We may do so imperfectly but we try (hence reconciliation).

The Christian does not say (as the OP’s mom did) that works are irrelevant.

So - if a person says that they have faith - but do not accept the need for works - they are displaying a dead faith…

Peace
James
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👍
 
Tx3bro said:
I went to the protestant church I usually attend with my mother today and on the way home we kind of got in a debate about the catholic church. **She was saying she has been to a few masses and they never have preached about salvation when she was there. **She was also saying how she believes only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelivent. I told her I agreed with her but that I think the good works idea in the catholic church is evident of a Relationship with god. She agreed however ended it by saying she still believes it is irrelivent, what do you take of this?
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Tx,

Now that you have established an understanding with your mother…explain to her that in the Catechism we acknowledge what she says…

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3.htm
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
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SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
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CHAPTER THREE
GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE
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1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:
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Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.1
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Tell her that she is correct that she does not hear preaching about salvation, the Church expects everyone to have arrived at this notion after RCIA and by knowing what is in the Catechism as seen in section 3 and the purpose of the Mass is to worship God and thank Him for what it is your mother believes should be preached…

Explain that we accept what she believes should be preached and we are grateful for what she believes should be preached and that every person in the Mass has some understanding…that salvation is through Christ and the Church believes that we can learn this on our own and this gives us more time for gratitude…Ok…👍
 
CopticChristian said:
Tx,

Now that you have established an understanding with your mother…explain to her that in the Catechism we acknowledge what she says…

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3.htm

Tell her that she is correct that she does not hear preaching about salvation, the Church expects everyone to have arrived at this notion after RCIA and by knowing what is in the Catechism as seen in section 3 and the purpose of the Mass is to worship God and thank Him for what it is your mother believes should be preached…

Explain that we accept what she believes should be preached and we are grateful for what she believes should be preached and that every person in the Mass has some understanding…that salvation is through Christ and the Church believes that we can learn this on our own and this gives us more time for gratitude…Ok…👍
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Great post, Coptic. Something else to consider is that the Mass itself is salvation at work? It is through the one sacrifice that we offer at each mass that we are saved. Salvation is what it’s all about.
 
Tx3bro said:
I went to the protestant church I usually attend with my mother today and on the way home we kind of got in a debate about the catholic church. She was saying she has been to a few masses and they never have preached about salvation when she was there. She was also saying how she believes only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelivent. I told her I agreed with her but that I think the good works idea in the catholic church is evident of a Relationship with god. She agreed however ended it by saying she still believes it is irrelivent, what do you take of this?
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Tx3bro,

Most of the good stuff has already been posted. Many great comments.

So, I’ll just focus on the comment your mother made about never hearing salvation preached in Catholic Mass.

I was in a discussion here quite awhile ago and someone posted the link to How Do Catholics Hear The Gospel?" (Gary Michuta)

This is a wonderful way of demonstrating how Catholics, and Anglicans for that matter, hear the Gospel through the Liturgy. It’s a short and easy read. I think it might make an impression on your mom.

I would say it is impossible to attend a Catholic Mass and not hear about salvation. Of course, as SteveVH already stated, “The Mass itself is salvation at work.” The 6th Chapter of John is a clear testament to this.

Peace and blessings,
Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
I would say it is impossible to attend a Catholic Mass and not hear about salvation. Of course, as SteveVH already stated, “The Mass itself is salvation at work.” The 6th Chapter of John is a clear testament to this.

Peace and blessings,
Anna
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You are absolutely right, Anna. We do not just have salvation preached to us. The beauty of the Mass, or Divine Liturgy, is that one is immersed in the saving act of God; through what we hear in Sacred Scripture (with readings from the Old Testament, the epistles, Psalms and the Gospels), to how the scriptures are explained to us, to what we see in the gestures of the priests and the physical posture of the congregation (sitting, kneeling, standing) to what we experience through the sacred music, to what we smell (incense, flowers) to what we touch and consume; the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Creator of the universe. Every facet of our being is affected. We do not just hear about salvation; we experience it both from within and from without.
 
SteveVH said:
You are absolutely right, Anna. We do not just have salvation preached to us. The beauty of the Mass, or Divine Liturgy, is that one is immersed in the saving act of God; through what we hear in Sacred Scripture (with readings from the Old Testament, the epistles, Psalms and the Gospels), to how the scriptures are explained to us, to what we see in the gestures of the priests and the physical posture of the congregation (sitting, kneeling, standing) to what we experience through the sacred music, to what we smell (incense, flowers) to what we touch and consume; the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Creator of the universe. Every facet of our being is affected. We do not just hear about salvation; we experience it both from within and from without.
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Steve,
Beautifully said.

Anna
 
If one is of the regeneate, justified by grace through faith, and yet chooses not to follow His commands to care for the least of His children, how can this be irrelevent?
 
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