What is your view on the Trinity?

[alwayswondering]

I’ve grown up Protestant and then had about 2 years where I believed in the LDS faith and 8 months of that, I took lessons from missionaries and attended an LDS church. I kind of still have a unique belief they have…I don’t believe exactly in the Trinity. I don’t believe God is Jesus, and Jesus is God in the flesh, and so on. I believe God is God and is His own unique individual, and that Jesus is his Son but is also a unique, separate individual, and same with the Holy Spirit. So I was just wondering, am I alone in this belief? Even growing up I always had an extremely difficult time with the “egg” story of how an egg has a yolk and a shell but is still an egg, etc. and how God came down as Jesus but then God had to turn his back on Jesus, or in that case himself, because he could not look at himself with the sin he had taken…etc.

Anyone else? What’s your view on the Trinity? Anyone else have the same belief as me?

 

[ltwin]

I believe the Trinity though not explicitly stated in Scripture is implied in Scripture. For example, John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.

John 10:

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and** no one will snatch them out of my hand**. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and** no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand**. 30** I and the Father are one**.”

 

[meltzerboy]

I’ve grown up Protestant and then had about 2 years where I believed in the LDS faith and 8 months of that, I took lessons from missionaries and attended an LDS church. I kind of still have a unique belief they have…I don’t believe exactly in the Trinity. I don’t believe God is Jesus, and Jesus is God in the flesh, and so on. I believe God is God and is His own unique individual, and that Jesus is his Son but is also a unique, separate individual, and same with the Holy Spirit. So I was just wondering, am I alone in this belief? Even growing up I always had an extremely difficult time with the “egg” story of how an egg has a yolk and a shell but is still an egg, etc. and how God came down as Jesus but then God had to turn his back on Jesus, or in that case himself, because he could not look at himself with the sin he had taken…etc.

Anyone else? What’s your view on the Trinity? Anyone else have the same belief as me?

As others on this Forum have commented, Frank Sheed presents a wonderfully clear description of the meaning of the Trinity in his works “Theology and Sanity” and “A Map of Life.” In them, he explains the Trinity as G-d with one nature or essence and three distinct, but not separate or shared, persons. Sheed does not accept the notion that the Trinity is and should remain a mystery of faith without any attempt at description. Still, virtually all earthbound analogies fall short although the best I’ve read is the flame analogy.

That said, as a Jew, I do not believe in the Trinity. It has no firm support in the Hebrew Bible (Jews do not accept the New Testament as authoritative Scripture), not even the oft-quoted verses in Genesis, such as the one which uses the imperial “we,” for which Jewish scholars have an entirely different interpretation compared to Christian scholars. In Judaism as in Islam, the Oneness of G-d (a unity unlike any other unity) is one of the most essential articles of faith. This excludes concepts such as three persons, the hypostatic union of the human and the divine in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as a distinct person. So to answer your question, no I don’t believe in a trinitarian G-d; however, I don’t agree with your version of Jesus as G-d’s Son and the Holy Spirit either. Nonetheless, I’m always open to discussion concerning these dogmatic principles of our respective faiths. In the end, we probably just have to agree to disagree, and respect one another’s strongly held beliefs. I personally believe G-d will understand.

 

[Guitarjesus7]

I’ve grown up Protestant and then had about 2 years where I believed in the LDS faith and 8 months of that, I took lessons from missionaries and attended an LDS church. I kind of still have a unique belief they have…I don’t believe exactly in the Trinity. I don’t believe God is Jesus, and Jesus is God in the flesh, and so on. I believe God is God and is His own unique individual, and that Jesus is his Son but is also a unique, separate individual, and same with the Holy Spirit. So I was just wondering, am I alone in this belief? Even growing up I always had an extremely difficult time with the “egg” story of how an egg has a yolk and a shell but is still an egg, etc. and how God came down as Jesus but then God had to turn his back on Jesus, or in that case himself, because he could not look at himself with the sin he had taken…etc.

Anyone else? What’s your view on the Trinity? Anyone else have the same belief as me?

I urge you to read and think about the Athanasian Creed. It states “we neither confound the persons, nor divide the essence.” the essence of god is all powerful, all loving, all knowing, etc. Jesus is all loving, all powerful, all knowing, so is the father, so is the holy spirit. The three members of the trinity all share exactly the same attributes, which makes them the same, one god. We neither confound the persons, (modalism) or divide the essence (into three separate gods)

 

[Fink]

Sink your teeth into these:
katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.htm

thesumma.info/reality/index.php

Scroll down to the appropriate spots.

The katapi edition of Theology and Sanity was published in the mid 1940s.
A second edition was published in 1978, and is available from Ignatius Press.
On the back cover:

Of Sheed`s many books, this is my favourite, not just because it includes*** the clearest explanation of the Trinity ever put on paper, *** but because it proves that only the Catholic view of reality can satisfy our mental hunger. - Karl Keating !]

Reality is available through Amazon.

 

[asker42]

According to this Rock The Holy Spirit speaks in the Old Testament in 2 Sm 23:2; Ez 2:2, 3:24, 11:5 and has omnipresence in Ps. 139:7. In Ps. 45 the King who is seen to be the Messiah is called God. In Isaiah 6:3 the seraphim says Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts, possibly reflecting the Triune nature of God. I understand the statement of “Let us make man in our image” in Genisis is seen by Jews as refering to either angels or God’s Divine Wisdom. I don’t see how it can be angels because they are not mentioned and are never attributed with helping God in His creation. If it is God’s Wisdom then this fits perfectly with John 1:1. So the Trinity can be found in the Old Testament.

A lot can be said about the doctrine of the Trinity but it is important to recognize that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the three persons within the Triune God. Jesus is God the Son who came to earth Incarnate. It isn’t appriate to think God became man and then had to become God again, Jesus has always been Divine. Don’t try to think of the person’s changing and then try to imagine a way out of a contradiction.

 

[Fink]

PS
Apology!
Of all of the links to pick, i had to pick a dud!

Try this one:
katapi.org.uk/TandS/ShortContents.html

 

[meltzerboy]

According to this Rock The Holy Spirit speaks in the Old Testament in 2 Sm 23:2; Ez 2:2, 3:24, 11:5 and has omnipresence in Ps. 139:7. In Ps. 45 the King who is seen to be the Messiah is called God. In Isaiah 6:3 the seraphim says Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts, possibly reflecting the Triune nature of God. I understand the statement of “Let us make man in our image” in Genisis is seen by Jews as refering to either angels or God’s Divine Wisdom. I don’t see how it can be angels because they are not mentioned and are never attributed with helping God in His creation. If it is God’s Wisdom then this fits perfectly with John 1:1. So the Trinity can be found in the Old Testament.

A lot can be said about the doctrine of the Trinity but it is important to recognize that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the three persons within the Triune God. Jesus is God the Son who came to earth Incarnate. It isn’t appriate to think God became man and then had to become God again, Jesus has always been Divine. Don’t try to think of the person’s changing and then try to imagine a way out of a contradiction.

Without getting into a lengthy apologetics discussion, whenever the Hebrew word for G-d–Elohim–is used in the Hebrew Bible, and it refers directly to G-d, it is not used in the sense of a collective noun or a numerical plural, but as a singular noun which takes a singular verb or a singular adjective. Thus the verse you and I quoted–“Let us make man in our own image” is preceded by “And G-d said,” which is a singular noun and verb. And the verse which follows “Let us make man in our image” reverts back to the singular construction as well. The expression of G-d’s humility and regard for His angels, represented by His addressing the Heavenly Court, is one of the interpretations of the plural form in this specific verse: the cohortative construction in Hebrew, which informs the angels of His decision. Of course, G-d does not need the angels’ participation (or approval), as you note. Throughout the Hebrew Bible, G-d frequently addresses His servants during the process of His actions.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Without getting into a lengthy apologetics discussion, whenever the Hebrew word for G-d–Elohim–is used in the Hebrew Bible, and it refers directly to G-d, it is not used in the sense of a collective noun or a numerical plural, but as a singular noun which takes a singular verb or a singular adjective. Thus the verse you and I quoted–“Let us make man in our own image” is preceded by “And G-d said,” which is a singular noun and verb. And the verse which follows “Let us make man in our image” reverts back to the singular construction as well. The expression of G-d’s humility and regard for His angels, represented by His addressing the Heavenly Court, is one of the interpretations of the plural form in this specific verse: the cohortative construction in Hebrew, which informs the angels of His decision. Of course, G-d does not need the angels’ participation (or approval), as you note. Throughout the Hebrew Bible, G-d frequently addresses His servants during the process of His actions.

Hello Meltz,

What’s the Jewish interpretation of Gen 18? I know the Catholic/Orthodox position, and guessing you know it as well, but never read anything about Gen 18 from Jewish sources. And is it a univocal interpretation with all the different sects (that the right word?)?

Thanks

OP:

As Fink pointed out the best work of the Trinity, F J Sheed, another great work is The Athanasian Creed by St. Athanasius, Early Church Father. Happy reading

 

[Pitcharan]

Sink your teeth into these:
katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.htm

thesumma.info/reality/index.php

Scroll down to the appropriate spots.

The katapi edition of Theology and Sanity was published in the mid 1940s.
A second edition was published in 1978, and is available from Ignatius Press.
On the back cover:
Of Sheed`s many books, this is my favourite, not just because it includes the clearest explanation of the Trinity ever put on paper, but because it proves that only the Catholic view of reality can satisfy our mental hunger. - Karl Keating !]

Reality is available through Amazon.

Hi Fink, Here’s my attempt to give a complete and clear picture:

HOLY TRINITY EXPLAINED
Anything done by anyone has three basic elements:, viz., information, decision and implementation. Thus, whenever something is done, it comprises discerning, deciding and doing.

When three persons function in perfect harmony full of humility, love and mutual trust, they will function like ONE being.

Consider this example of a small family comprising the father, the mother and child:

• The father is the head of the family and takes all decisions and has fully entrusted implementation of all his decisions to his child
• The father is counseled by the mother who supplies him with accurate information needed for deciding. She also provides similar counsel to the child for executing the father’s decisions
• The child executes the father’s decision exactly as willed by the father and receives from the mother, all counsel required.
• The father and child, completely trust the counsel given by the mother, never doubting her or seeking better advice
• The mother supplies ONLY truth to the father and child; she never colors it with her own views
• The child’s only desire is to fulfill the father’s will without any deviation and does it in humble obedience full of sincerity and love and hence the outcome is always perfect
• The father, the mother and the child love one another, trust one another and ALWAYS agree with one another; whatever they possess belongs to all three and whatever they do is just like that of ONE being.

The HOLY TRINITY comprises three persons in ONE GODHEAD and this is exactly how they function:

• The Father wills and controls everything for good
• The Son implements the Father’s will, be it creation, redemption or judgment
• The Holy Spirit counsels the Father and whoever the Father chooses by discerning truth, exposing falsehood and convicting guilt

“… and the three agree as one” (1Jn 5:8)

Quoted below is the back cover of my book titled PERFECT MANAGEMENT:

Pitcharan tells us with conviction that for attaining perfection, management process must model itself on the Holy Trinity. Though a little book, the insight offered is quite profound, and, those who want to pursue the spiritual life will find it immensely profitable.
Rev.Fr.(Dr.) Assisi Saldanha, C.Ss.R.,
Professor of Theology, Redemptorist Theologate, Bangalore and Vicar Provincial of the Redemptorists in India.

The author presents the reader with a pattern for synchronizing our lives with the Trinity in order to journey closer to attain that perfection that we all seek. The thoughts and reflections are crisp and reveal the authors’ spiritual experience.
Rev. Fr. Adolf Washington,
Managing Director & Editor-in-Chief, South Asian Religious News, President – Indian Catholic Press Association and Member: Union Catholique Internationale de la Presse, Geneva.

Illustrated in an uncomplicated manner, it increases our understanding of the Holy Trinity and readers will surely be enthused to glorify and worship the Holy Trinity.
Harold Andrew Patrick,
Professor – OB / HRM,
Christ College Institute of Management, Bangalore.

Enchanted and gripped by the awesome beauty of the Holy Trinity, Pitcharan explores eloquently the rich reservoir of Trinitarian dynamics. “Perfect Management” is an original, insightful and fascinating booklet for all who desire effective management of any meaningful occupation.
Rev. Fr. Lawrence, OFM–Cap.,
Dean of Theology, Capuchin Theological College, Tiruchirapalli and Asst. Director, ‘ANUGRAHA’, Capuchin Counseling Institute, Dindigul.

Entering into the God’s way of managing and comparing it with humans is a little hazardous. But Pitcharan considers in this one thing – process, and goes into it - discern, decide and do. He coherently addresses the issue.
Rev. Fr. N. Casimir Raj, SJ,
Director, Xavier Labour Relations Institute (XLRI), Jamshedpur

I.J.A. Publications, Bangalore.
PRICE Rs.18.00 ISBN 978 -81-86778 -61-6

 

[CEM5]

I’ve grown up Protestant and then had about 2 years where I believed in the LDS faith and 8 months of that, I took lessons from missionaries and attended an LDS church. I kind of still have a unique belief they have…I don’t believe exactly in the Trinity. I don’t believe God is Jesus, and Jesus is God in the flesh, and so on. I believe God is God and is His own unique individual, and that Jesus is his Son but is also a unique, separate individual, and same with the Holy Spirit. So I was just wondering, am I alone in this belief? Even growing up I always had an extremely difficult time with the “egg” story of how an egg has a yolk and a shell but is still an egg, etc. and how God came down as Jesus but then God had to turn his back on Jesus, or in that case himself, because he could not look at himself with the sin he had taken…etc.

Anyone else? What’s your view on the Trinity? Anyone else have the same belief as me?

I don’t know who taught you that about God turning His back on Jesus: never happened. The Bible does not depict this either.

Instead, the Bible is clear in telling us that God is one: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are many passages that tell us this.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.
… 14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

Exodus 3:14 – God tells Moses He is the “I AM”

John 8:28 and 58, – Jesus echos this, and tells them He is the “I AM”.

God is said to be the “Alpha and Omega”, Jesus is also the “Alpha and Omega”.

In Genesis we see “Let us create man in our image”

Going back to the Gospel of John, this plurality is described as being the Word.

Word became flesh. (that is Jesus!)
In the beginning was the Word (that is God the Creator) – the “us” in Genesis
The Word was with God = Second Person of the Trinity
All things came to be through him (the Word) = God/Jesus

Yet we call God the Creator of all things, God our Father. Yet we also see that it is this same God who is called the Word, and who became flesh and lived in the world among us. This is Jesus, called Son of God, the Word who became flesh. God our emmanuel (God with us).

In Isaiah 9 it predicts the coming of Jesus and this is what is said:

6 For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 His authority shall grow continually, and there shall be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Note the names He is described with:

Mighty God
Everlasing Father
Prince of Peace
A “son” given to us
and He has the “throne of David” and his kingdom will have endless peace…
Wonderful Counselor, = (the Holy Spirit)

(see John 14:26 - but the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.)

So, here we see God described as all of these “persons”. One God, yet three Persons. Not three separate “gods”.

Just as the three leaf clover is one plant, yet has three leaves, but is not three separate “plants”, so too is God ONE. :shamrock2:

Blessings,
CEM

P.S.
1 John 5:7 DR And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

 

[CEM5]

Thus the verse you and I quoted–“Let us make man in our own image” is preceded by “And G-d said,” which is a singular noun and verb. And the verse which follows “Let us make man in our image” reverts back to the singular construction as well. The expression of G-d’s humility and regard for His angels, represented by His addressing the Heavenly Court, is one of the interpretations of the plural form in this specific verse: the cohortative construction in Hebrew, which informs the angels of His decision. Of course, G-d does not need the angels’ participation (or approval), as you note. Throughout the Hebrew Bible, G-d frequently addresses His servants during the process of His actions.

When using this hypothesis, it falls short when people forget that God did not create the angels in His image. Therefore, God’s use of the “us” in regard to the angels He is supposedly consulting, logically falls short since only humans are created in God’s image, NOT the angels.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello Meltz,

What’s the Jewish interpretation of Gen 18? I know the Catholic/Orthodox position, and guessing you know it as well, but never read anything about Gen 18 from Jewish sources. And is it a univocal interpretation with all the different sects (that the right word?)?

Thanks

OP:

As Fink pointed out the best work of the Trinity, F J Sheed, another great work is The Athanasian Creed by St. Athanasius, Early Church Father. Happy reading

There is no ONE Jewish interpretation of this challenging Biblical passage for there is rarely but one Jewish interpretation of any passage. And it’s not so much a matter of differences in interpretation based on different Jewish branches (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform); but rather historical differences, all of which are Orthodox rabbinical views. According to Rashi’s interpretation, Genesis 18 reveals that hospitality and kindness to guests takes precedence over even conversation and prayer with G-d. The lesson of the story, proposed by some modern Rabbis and based on Rashi’s teaching, is that when we pray to G-d, we are receiving a spiritual gift; whereas when we attend to others, we are giving of ourselves. G-d knows that Abraham will make the right choice in this situation, the choice of giving to others. Now, Rashi also says that the three “men” in the story are not really men at all, but angels or messengers of G-d, each one delivering his own message: one about Abraham, another about Sarah, and a third about Sodom. He does NOT suggest they are the three persons of G-d Himself, and neither does he say that Abraham’s conversation with G-d is in the sense of speaking to G-d in the flesh. There is in Judaism what is known as the Presence of G-d (the Shechinah), which is a palpable feeling of G-d’s closeness. That is the meaning of Abraham’s conversation with G-d. However, Maimonides’ interpretation of this story is quite different. For him, the whole incident is a prophetic dream, not reality, contrary to the Mishnah of Rashi. Maimonides (the Rambam) does not accept Rashi’s belief that hospitality supersedes prayer since this contradicts other Torah teaching which states that except for imminent life danger, one does not greet anyone, even a king, when in communion with G-d. Also, according to Maimonides, Abraham offers the so-called angels food and drink without any later observation that they, as angels, do not need such nourishment. Unlike Rashi, Maimonides believes these people are neither men nor angels in the ordinary sense, but rather higher beings of a different nature. Finally, Nachmanides (the Ramban) rejects the analysis of Maimonides (his arch-rival) and offers his own interpretation. There is also the belief that the Presence of G-d in conversation with Abraham follows him as he greets his guests, whether they be men or angels, and perhaps assuming the form of one of them, but only in the sense of a Divine Presence. This notion conforms with the Jewish belief that when one studies Torah, one can feel G-d’s presence as a participant.

 

[JonNC]

I’ve grown up Protestant and then had about 2 years where I believed in the LDS faith and 8 months of that, I took lessons from missionaries and attended an LDS church. I kind of still have a unique belief they have…I don’t believe exactly in the Trinity. I don’t believe God is Jesus, and Jesus is God in the flesh, and so on. I believe God is God and is His own unique individual, and that Jesus is his Son but is also a unique, separate individual, and same with the Holy Spirit. So I was just wondering, am I alone in this belief? Even growing up I always had an extremely difficult time with the “egg” story of how an egg has a yolk and a shell but is still an egg, etc. and how God came down as Jesus but then God had to turn his back on Jesus, or in that case himself, because he could not look at himself with the sin he had taken…etc.

Anyone else? What’s your view on the Trinity? Anyone else have the same belief as me?

As Lutherans, we hold to the historic belief in the Trinity, as stated in the Athanasian Creed:

The Athanasian Creed
Written against the Arians.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

In addition, I believe that the Trinity is more explicit in scripture than some seem to believe, when one looks at the various statements, John 1:1 about the person of Christ, and in the account of Jesus’ baptism in Matthew 3 - Christ being baptized (God the Son), the Spirit descends as a dove (God the Holy SPirit), and a voice from Heaven (God the Father).

Jon

 

[alwayswondering]

When I said God turned his back on Jesus, I was referring to when Jesus was on the cross and God turned his back because he couldn’t look at sin.

 

[CEM5]

When I said God turned his back on Jesus, I was referring to when Jesus was on the cross and God turned his back because he couldn’t look at sin.

That is not the teaching of the Church and not what God did.

Jesus, with limited breath, was quoting the first verse of Psalms 22. It was a reminder to those Apostles and disciples around Him, that victory would be His.

All Jewish people knew the Psalms and just by quoting the opening verse, they would immediately recall the rest, just as when we sing the first line of “Twinkle, Twinkle little star…” all of us who grew up with those nursery rhymes/songs, would automatically know the rest of the song/rhyme. This is what Jesus was reminding them of, not that He felt abandoned by His Father. Victory over death – this was not the end for Jesus!!

Psalms 22 is titled: The Prayer of an Innocent Man (and written by King David)

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? 2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest. 3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. 4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. 5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame. 6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads; 8 “Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver— let him rescue the one in whom he delights!” 9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother’s breast. 10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God. 11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled; 17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; 18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots. 19 But you, O Lord, do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid! 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me. 22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: 23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! 24** For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him**. 25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him. 26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the Lord. May your hearts live forever! 27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. 28 For dominion belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations. 29 To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him. 30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord, 31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.

blessings,
CEM

 

[asker42]

I agree that the “Us” goes back to the singular G-d. The fact that the “Us” refers back to G-d shows that he was referring to himself, so “Us” would be referring to the Trinity. G-d is a singular being comprised of three persons.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Hi everyone.

Sorry haven’t really followed this thread. Seem like some interesting links though

I wondered what people thought about the trinity in practice? I have a fairly good working knowledge of Western Christian literature on the subject, but what of those ordinary and nominal Catholics etc? Is it easy to misunderstand? Do some fall into polytheism without realising (as our Muslim friends may claim)? Any ideas?

Peace

 

[Publisher]

Hi everyone.

Sorry haven’t really followed this thread. Seem like some interesting links though

I wondered what people thought about the trinity in practice? I have a fairly good working knowledge of Western Christian literature on the subject, but what of those ordinary and nominal Catholics etc? Is it easy to misunderstand? Do some fall into polytheism without realising (as our Muslim friends may claim)? Any ideas?

Peace

I think some do…all theological treatise fail eventually…we are dealing with Mystery afterall. In my own experience discussing with many Christians, I get the impression that many seem to believe that somehow Jesus “saves” us from God…that it’s Jesus vs God…that somehow Jesus is “protecting” us from the wrath of a vengeful God…like they are two entities entirely different…yet somehow “one”.

We claim we believe in “one God” but this God we sometimes describe needs propitation somehow…“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…” God’s very nature and love for humanity is revealed in Jesus of Nazareth…God Himself entered our humanity to save us…yet sometimes…we tend to separate the two as though the “vengeful wrathful God” was “satisfied” by a debt paid by Christ on the cross…His love and mercy is overshadowed by this very “punative” concept as though we need to be “protected” from God by Jesus…I can see how Muslims…and others…could get a very “polytheistic” concept of the Trinity.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi everyone.

Sorry haven’t really followed this thread. Seem like some interesting links though

I wondered what people thought about the trinity in practice? I have a fairly good working knowledge of Western Christian literature on the subject, but what of those ordinary and nominal Catholics etc? Is it easy to misunderstand? Do some fall into polytheism without realising (as our Muslim friends may claim)? Any ideas?

Peace

For the Record, Jesus was an Asian Jew. Christianity is an Eastern Religion. I see you speak of Western Christian Literature. What is it you speak of?