What is your view on this story...related to abortion?

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I don’t have the link as I read it quite a while ago. If you do a search for Savita Halappanavar inquest you’ll get a ton of results. You have to sift through the biases is whichever source you choose and read carefully. What I mainly remember is that there was shocking negligence involved. Of course the pro-choice media still imply an abortion would have saved her, but that is not what the inquest actually said.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
The problem is the pro life are saying she was already in septic shock but the news said she wasn’t, it was the refusal to remove the foetus that caused the septic shock.

I agree that if she was already in septic shock, an abortion wouldn’t have helped but that is not what the news said…she deteriorated over the 3 days it took for the miscarriage to happen causing the septic shock.

I guess we will never know what really happened as I never trust anyone with an agenda.

I still think medical facilities shouldn’t be governed by religion and the wishes of the patient respected. I think I am right in saying that doctors in the uk aren’t actually allowed to refuse to give treatment on their own religious grounds.
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abortion stops a beating heart. it is murder pure and simple and we do have laws that are suppose to prevent murder. Saying that hospitals shouldn’t govern by religion is short sighted because all laws do have a religious base and reasoning to them. The religious grounds for not doing the abortion in the Irish case is do to Irish laws not the personal religious feelings of those that treated the patient. Bad cases like this shouldn’t be used to overturn Irish laws which is what the media tried to do here.
 
robwar said:
abortion stops a beating heart. it is murder pure and simple and we do have laws that are suppose to prevent murder. Saying that hospitals shouldn’t govern by religion is short sighted because all laws do have a religious base and reasoning to them. The religious grounds for not doing the abortion in the Irish case is do to Irish laws not the personal religious feelings of those that treated the patient. Bad cases like this shouldn’t be used to overturn Irish laws which is what the media tried to do here.
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I realise we as Christians see it as murder, but abortion (in the UK) is legal and not considered murder…I can’t do anything about the law unfortunately, while I wish everyone came to the Christian way, I think we have to accept that everyone is different and religious beliefs should be used to deny patients their wishes…whether or not we agree with them. As I said in the UK I am pretty sure it’s not allowed, so Christian doctors have to perform abortions if asked (I could be wrong…)

It’s not short sighted because it is the case in the UK…we as Christians see the morality as having a base in religion but others don’t, Christians would do a lot better if they realised that. My husband is the most moral man I know - is against abortion and all for marriage yet he is atheist.

I wasn’t talking about whether cases should be used by media to change Irish laws, that wasn’t the intent of the post and is a whole different topic. I was asking whether this was acceptable by the Catholic Church or was a single catholic acting on his own decisions.
 
I believe that if early delivery were the only way to treat septicemia (I am not sure if that is the case), then it would be morally permissible to induce delivery even if it was highly unlikely that the baby would survive. That is my understanding of the principle of double effect.

However, it seems that in this case, they didn’t realize how sick she was because of failure to follow up on blood tests etc., which meant they did not attempt this when it would have made a difference. It also seems she did not receive the correct antibiotics, chart notations were ignored, etc.

What I remember finding odd in this story, is that she was asking for a termination right away, before her symptoms even got severe. If I was pregnant and fell ill, my main concern would be for the baby.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
I realise we as Christians see it as murder, but abortion (in the UK) is legal and not considered murder…I can’t do anything about the law unfortunately, while I wish everyone came to the Christian way, I think we have to accept that everyone is different and religious beliefs should be used to deny patients their wishes…whether or not we agree with them. As I said in the UK I am pretty sure it’s not allowed, so Christian doctors have to perform abortions if asked (I could be wrong…)

It’s not short sighted because it is the case in the UK…we as Christians see the morality as having a base in religion but others don’t, Christians would do a lot better if they realised that. My husband is the most moral man I know - is against abortion and all for marriage yet he is atheist.

I wasn’t talking about whether cases should be used by media to change Irish laws, that wasn’t the intent of the post and is a whole different topic. I was asking whether this was acceptable by the Catholic Church or was a single catholic acting on his own decisions.
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Well, in ancient times, many if not most societies didn’t “see” infanticide as murder, either, with Egypt being a notable exception. The killing of very young children, whether passively or actively, was not only permissible but widespread and in some cases even encouraged. Likewise, it is hardly unknown for otherwise decent cultures have encouraged suicide by or euthanasia of the elderly and the disabled. At one period in Roman history, infanticide of deformed children was required by law! In other words, that some in our society do not “see” abortion as murder does not mean it was not in fact murder.

Besides, Catholics do not see the prohibition against murder, including the murder of an unborn infant, as something that depends upon appreciating the existence of a deity. It is a matter of natural law. No one would think a civilization that tolerates murder to be worthy of the name. The only question is when does human life (and therefore the right to life) start and under what circumstances is the right to life ever superseded by another compelling reason.

More to the point, let me ask you this: If it became the norm to “see” life as beginning in the sixth month after birth, which of us would not fight to make infanticide illegal even before the sixth month? None of us! We would not care that people thought us religious nuts!! In a democracy, especially, the blindness of others does not relieve the responsibility of those who see.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
The problem is the pro life are saying she was already in septic shock but the news said she wasn’t, it was the refusal to remove the foetus that caused the septic shock.

I agree that if she was already in septic shock, an abortion wouldn’t have helped but that is not what the news said…she deteriorated over the 3 days it took for the miscarriage to happen causing the septic shock.

I guess we will never know what really happened** as I never trust anyone with an agenda**.

I still think medical facilities shouldn’t be governed by religion and the wishes of the patient respected. I think I am right in saying that doctors in the uk aren’t actually allowed to refuse to give treatment on their own religious grounds.
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Except yourself of course!👍
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
I realise we as Christians see it as murder, but abortion (in the UK) is legal and not considered murder…I can’t do anything about the law unfortunately, while I wish everyone came to the Christian way, I think we have to accept that everyone is different and religious beliefs should be used to deny patients their wishes…whether or not we agree with them. As I said in the UK I am pretty sure it’s not allowed, so Christian doctors have to perform abortions if asked (I could be wrong…)

It’s not short sighted because it is the case in the UK…we as Christians see the morality as having a base in religion but others don’t, Christians would do a lot better if they realised that. My husband is the most moral man I know - is against abortion and all for marriage yet he is atheist.

I wasn’t talking about whether cases should be used by media to change Irish laws, that wasn’t the intent of the post and is a whole different topic. I was asking whether this was acceptable by the Catholic Church or was a single catholic acting on his own decisions.
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Bolded is false of what Christians believe. This may be true for you, But for a Catholic truth comes from God, God Places this truth on all hearts through the concept of “Natural Law”.

As the Former Prime Minister of Canada said "A truth of a truth is a truth!

Peace!👍
 
EasterJoy said:
Well, in ancient times, many if not most societies didn’t “see” infanticide as murder, either, with Egypt being a notable exception. The killing of very young children, whether passively or actively, was not only permissible but widespread and in some cases even encouraged. Likewise, it is hardly unknown for otherwise decent cultures have encouraged suicide by or euthanasia of the elderly and the disabled. At one period in Roman history, infanticide of deformed children was required by law! In other words, that some in our society do not “see” abortion as murder does not mean it was not in fact murder.

Besides, Catholics do not see the prohibition against murder, including the murder of an unborn infant, as something that depends upon appreciating the existence of a deity. It is a matter of natural law. No one would think a civilization that tolerates murder to be worthy of the name. The only question is when does human life (and therefore the right to life) start and under what circumstances is the right to life ever superseded by another compelling reason.

More to the point, let me ask you this: If it became the norm to “see” life as beginning in the sixth month after birth, which of us would not fight to make infanticide illegal even before the sixth month? None of us! We would not care that people thought us religious nuts!! In a democracy, especially, the blindness of others does not relieve the responsibility of those who see.
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Very well said:thumbsup:
 
ProdigalSun said:
Bolded is false of what Christians believe. This may be true for you, But for a Catholic truth comes from God, God Places this truth on all hearts through the concept of “Natural Law”.

As the Former Prime Minister of Canada said "A truth of a truth is a truth!

Peace!👍
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I agree with you, but that’s only because we have a belief in God, people who don’t believe in God don’t think morals come from Him…because to them He doesn’t exist.

Did you misunderstand me? I said Christians base their moralities on religion ie God…but you can’t possibly expect people that don’t believe He exists to do the same?
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
I agree with you, but that’s only because we have a belief in God, people who don’t believe in God don’t think morals come from Him…because to them He doesn’t exist.

Did you misunderstand me? I said Christians base their moralities on religion ie God…but you can’t possibly expect people that don’t believe He exists to do the same?
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Wheather they believe in God or not is irrelevant. Natural Law is still printed upon their hearts like everyone else. John Paul II stated that all good. (ie. Love and Mercy) comes from God. No one does good without God!

This does not mean that an Atheist can not do good. But that any good he does is done through God. Wheather he knows or believes this is irrelevant.

THis is what our CHurch teaches… Do you not agree?
 
ProdigalSun said:
Wheather they believe in God or not is irrelevant. Natural Law is still printed upon their hearts like everyone else. John Paul II stated that all good. (ie. Love and Mercy) comes from God. No one does good without God!

This does not mean that an Atheist can not do good. But that any good he does is done through God. Wheather he knows or believes this is irrelevant.

THis is what our CHurch teaches… Do you not agree?
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I agree that it is God whether they know it or not…what I am saying is they themselves won’t base it on God…if you went upto an atheist and asked where their morals came from…they won’t say God. That is what I am saying…what they themselves will say…
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
I agree that it is God whether they know it or not…what I am saying is they themselves won’t base it on God…if you went upto an atheist and asked where their morals came from…they won’t say God. That is what I am saying…what they themselves will say…
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This is still besides the point that I am getting at. I am basically disagreeing with you about the statement the “Christians would do better if we realised that others don’t believe Morals come from God” This is not the case. If anyone believer or non-believer doesn’t realize that Atheiest don’t believe that Morals come from God they just need to sit down and give their head a shake. Of Course they don’t believe this. It only makes sense.

THe fact that we believe Abortion is Murder because it kills a living human being we must make it perfectly clear to everyone that it is Murder wheter they beleive this morale comes from God or NOT!

PEace:thumbsup:
 
Assuming it is true, and she died because she did not “have an abortion”, and not the e-coli situation another suggested, I interpret the following:

To me there is a difference between having an abortion and inducing delivery. An abortion means ending the child’s life (mostly commonly these days as I understand it as injecting potassium into the child’s heart, while still en utero, then forgive the graphicness, dismembering the body and pulling it out with forceps)

I see that as different than inducing delivery. No need to stop the child’s heart, no need to deny his or her humanity through brutal treatment of the remains. Delivery is induced, to treat the infection, the child is allowed the dignity of birth, and as many breaths as God does grant, perhaps even baptism if the babe survives birth, and then a proper burial.

There may be a medical need to delivery early to save the mother’s life (HELP syndrome may be another instance) but there is never the need for an abortion.
 
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