What is your vocation or which vocation are you discerning

[MPSchneiderLC]

Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of how canon law comes about. Canon law always follows theology and therefore it is improper to cite “canon law status” as if it is in contradiction to sound theology. In canon law class we had the example of a baptism of an infant performed with coca cola in the desert. Was this valid or invalid? As a baptism it is invalid because the things needed to bring about baptism were missing. This baptism could have been done in the heart of the desert inside a historic monument with all the vestments, incense, prayers, etc., but was lacking was water. Plain, simple drinking water. The infant is not old enough to have baptism by desire. Consequently, no baptism has occurred. You could say that this is just legalizing the situation but the theology came before the law and the law merely clarifies what the Church requires for a valid external baptism to take place. A sacrament always has elements that are essential to its existence.

No, I understand that canon law follows Theology.

Likewise sacramentals always have elements necessary for their existence, especially the consecration of persons. Societies of Apostolic Life and Associations of the Faithful and private promises/vows by their very nature do not give their vowed individualsthe essential elements necessary for a true and proper consecration. This is not up for debate, as if Regnum Christi promises are somehow a special exception. Regnum Christi promises could be made in the middle of St. Peter’s Basilica with the Pope listening in, and they would still remain basic lay women with private promises who are not consecrated. All the external trappings in the world - calling onself consecrated or brother/sister do not make a person consecrated. If saying one is a “brother” or a “sister” automatically made one consecrated, are we to consider members of the Legion of Mary (or even the Mormons or Amish) consecrated persons? Do you consider them consecrated persons? If not, what is your criteria? More importantly, what is the Church’s criteria? Do you know what the theological elements are that make for a true consecration of persons by God? Do you know why the canons on consecrated life were written the way they were? Do you know the theological effects of consecration “by” God as opposed to “to” God?

I have referred a lot to the Regnum Christi consecrated more simply because I know them better. It is a private consecration, we don’t disagree. However, with canon law following theology there are sometimes division in theology that fall in the same category in canon law; there is not necessarily a 1-to-1 relationship. This is not faulty Theology nor faulty canon law but simply theological divisions that need no differentiation in law. For example (this may not be the best example), intentionally dumping the Eucharist in the sanctuary while stealing a golden ciborium is far less horrendous than celebrating a black mass with the consecrated host (a theological distinction) yet in canon law both fall under the latae sententiae excommunication of desecration of the Eucharist.

Thus I think there is a value in saying that the private vows made by members in societies of apostolic life and certain associations of the faithful are a different type in theology and practice than a private consecration to the Sacred Heart even though there is no canonical distinction. I think failing to make this distinct is an insult to groups like the Domincan Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist (who have since become a religious institute), RC consecrated, Opus Dei Numeraries, Madonna House members, Sisters of Charity, etc.

For example as a member of the Knights of Columbus (association of the faithful) or had a I done an official consecration to the Sacred Heart, I could enter religious life but were I to have made private promises as a member of Madonna House, that would be an obstacle (I think such a distinction is made here in canon law - if not, it’s made in most constitutions of religious institutes as no religious community would accept a consecrated woman of Regnum Christi if she didn’t renounce her private vows).

Just because there is no distinction in canon law, does not mean there is no distinction in theology or practice.

 

[SerraSemper]

No, I understand that canon law follows Theology.

Thus I think there is a value in saying that the private vows made by members in societies of apostolic life and certain associations of the faithful are a different type in theology and practice than a private consecration to the Sacred Heart even though there is no canonical distinction. I think failing to make this distinct is an insult to groups like the Domincan Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist (who have since become a religious institute), RC consecrated, Opus Dei Numeraries, Madonna House members, Sisters of Charity, etc.

For example as a member of the Knights of Columbus (association of the faithful) or had a I done an official consecration to the Sacred Heart, I could enter religious life but were I to have made private promises as a member of Madonna House, that would be an obstacle (I think such a distinction is made here in canon law - if not, it’s made in most constitutions of religious institutes as no religious community would accept a consecrated woman of Regnum Christi if she didn’t renounce her private vows).

Just because there is no distinction in canon law, does not mean there is no distinction in theology or practice.

Again we disagree. It is no insult to acknowledge things for what they are. Private vows can be a good thing but do not elevate a person into a true consecration. All that would be required for a regnum Christi member to enter an institute of consecrated life would be to get a simple dispensation of her promises by her confessor or pastor.

Why don’t you examine why the Church does not give a consecration to members of Societies of Apostolic Life. Do you know the essential elements needed for a true consecration in the consecrated life? Knowledge of this might help in understanding why the Church does not include Societies of Apostolic Life and Associations of the Faithful amongst its Institutes of Consecrated Life. If vows are all that are necessary for consecration, do we acknowledge Lutheran and Anglican nuns as being truly consecrated? After all, they are baptized and have made vows.

 

[MPSchneiderLC]

Again we disagree. It is no insult to acknowledge things for what they are. Private vows can be a good thing but do not elevate a person into a true consecration. All that would be required for a regnum Christi member to enter an institute of consecrated life would be to get a simple dispensation of her promises by her confessor or pastor.

In the end let’s just agree to disagree. I don’t want to discuss endlessly and I don’t have the resources at my current disposition to research it more.

However, one minor point here: I’m almost certain that a consecrated member of RC, a member of Madonna house, or a Opus Dei numerary needs permission from the group not just an outside confessor or local pastor once they have made a lifetime commitment (I know this was written into the RC statues whose writing was overseen by Fr Gianfranco Ghirlanda who has been dean of Canon Law at the Gregorian University in Rome so knows more than I or you probably ever will). It is obvious that they don’t need a dispensation from a bishop as you (consecrated virgin) would or the Holy See as I (religious) would.

 

[SerraSemper]

In the end let’s just agree to disagree. I don’t want to discuss endlessly and I don’t have the resources at my current disposition to research it more.

However, one minor point here: I’m almost certain that a consecrated member of RC, a member of Madonna house, or a Opus Dei numerary needs permission from the group not just an outside confessor or local pastor once they have made a lifetime commitment (I know this was written into the RC statues whose writing was overseen by Fr Gianfranco Ghirlanda who has been dean of Canon Law at the Gregorian University in Rome so knows more than I or you probably ever will). It is obvious that they don’t need a dispensation from a bishop as you (consecrated virgin) would or the Holy See as I (religious) would.

The canons determine how a private vow is dispensed, not individuals or even associations of the faithful. It’s the canons on public and private vows I’ll refer you and any reader to for the exact information. I do not have any vows that can be dispensed as a sacred virgin, thus a bishop is not able to dispense me from my indissoluble marriage bond with Jesus Christ so your example of consecrated virgins doesn’t hold. The bishop or Holy See (depending on what level of institute of consecrated life) is able to dispense with vows of those under their direct authority.

Regnum Christi is canonically an association of the faithful. Their promises or vows do not get any special treatment. If they ever achieve any other canonical standing we can talk again on the subject, but for now, I’m withdrawing from the conversation. There’s no point in beating a dead horse. RC’s are laypersons with private promises and a way of life that they have privately bound themselves to live. If this ever changes canonically, I’m sure we’ll hear of it because RC likes to broadcast its doings to all the world.