What Jesus actually SAID

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Great Job TIm!! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition…Oops did I say that?🤷

BTW Serviam!
I know well what the Shema is. I can pray in Hebrew, in fact I can keep up with most practicing Jews, in Hebrew, in Temple. Yes, He was saying the Shema in a new way, He incorporated its heart into His prayer instruction and the people knew that because every single one of them, illiterate or not, could pray the Shema.

“pass the ammunition…” not funny. I lost a child that way. Wrong forum, try the Sig Sauer site.
 
OK folks I’m leaving this thread.

Thank you to all who were so kind and generous and shared the Love of Christ by giving your support and advice and even your prayers! YOU are the heart of this site, those like you who live their faith, and why I stay on this site.

And then…well, one upmanship, arrogance, lack of empathy, rushing to judgment, pointing fingers…the world offers plenty of those things. I don’t want to engage such because I posted out of an attempt to resolve a problem. Anything that comes between me and Jesus is a problem. I want to hear it and see it, clearly, without obfuscation and I do not want to be led astray by man-made rules. So I shared my problem and some kicked me around a bit, which I rather expect from people anyway.

God bless you all.
 
Well now. This is interesting. I wanted to post for elzeena, but apparently she won’t be around anymore. Hmmmm. Well, maybe.
elzeena:
If you can’t be free of sin, why try, that seems to be the biggest complaint I’ve heard in ex-Catholics who are now in other Christian denominations. Evangelical Protestantism says (sola scriptura) 'NOT BY WORKS BUT BY FAITH, LEST ANYONE BOAST"…and yet, a priest I greatly admire and love said yesterday from the pulpit that we can “easily lose our salvation” by our acts.
Let’s first take a look at the Scripture. I’m pretty sure it comes from Galatians:
We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified and so elsewhere] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. [Emphasis mine] (Gal 2:15-16)
This is something that our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters use to justify sola fides. But the reference is to “works of the Law,” not the good or bad works of day to day living. One of the main points of Pauline Theology is that observance of the Law never justified, in fact even condemned, anyone. His main example is Abraham.

The second chapter of James’ Epistle does a really good job in describing the necessity of “works” for the demonstration of faith. I think that the same principles hold true in our modern world. Strict adherence to the “Law of Catholicism,” simply to adhere to the “Law” does not save anyone. It is “faith in Jesus Christ” which saves. For example, does going to Mass on Sunday because the Church says we must, or going to Mass on Sunday to worship, ask forgiveness, receive the Eucharist and open one’s heart to Jesus save someone. Yet, if we kick our neighbor in the head, give scandal or insult our parents we probably have sinned. There is a definite distinction in “good and bad works” and “works of the Law.”

One of the hardest lessons for me to have learned is the one contained in the story of the woman who was caught in adultery in Jn 8:2-11, which I’ll excerpt. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone…Has no one condemned you?..Neither do I…” I am a sinner and I cannot judge anyone. I can say, “Your behavior appears to be…or you have said this, and…” But I can not say, “You are an apostate. You are misguided.” I have also learned to “look past” the passion with which someone may present their ideas and try to look into his or her heart. In elzeena’s presentation I hear a primal cry. “I want to reconcile with my God and I don’t think I can!” I can’t read her heart, but it seems to be something like that.

This also goes back to “works.” The oracle of Psalm 50 [49] 9-14 tells us that God has no need of bulls and goats because they are all His anyway. He doesn’t want sacrifice–works of the Law–he wants us–our hearts. The Letter to the Hebrews is a wonderful prose exposition of this. Humans need to offer expiation to God–Adam’s choice. The Law didn’t come into being until the apostasy and broken covenant of the Golden Calf. There is a philosophy that teaches: the size and amount of repayment depends on the staus of the one offended. (I wish I had a cite, but I have forgotten.) We offended God! How much more status is there? Humans cannot in and of themselves offer expiation to God. If we try to do this without help, not only do we fail, but the only result is growing guilt and hopelessness. This I think is elzeena’s cry.

But God wants us so much that He didn’t wait for us to even try. He “emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave” (Phi 2:7) and was crucified. And all we have to do is do our best to be like Him–to give our hearts to Him and to our neighbor. Can we be like Him on this earth? Empatically, NO!! But,
Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (1Jn 3:2)
Thank you, Lord Jesus, my Brother, my Friend, my Saviour, my God, my High Priest.

Grace, peace and love.
 
Yes, He was saying the Shema in a new way,
Aah! This is a different claim than the one you’d made earlier! OK – so, whereas earlier, Jews had prayed the Sh’ma, now Jesus prayed the Lord’s Prayer. It makes a sort of sense, in terms of the notion of prayer traditions; but, then again, the ideas in the two prayers don’t really closely correspond, do they? They both address the same One God, but other than that…?
He incorporated its heart into His prayer instruction and the people knew that because every single one of them, illiterate or not, could pray the Shema.
Again… I think it’s more like the 18 Benedictions than the Sh’ma … 😉
 
Have you read MY POST? How can you ask these questions? If the Incarnation, the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth are “untrue”…I would not be sitting here right now because I live my life for the Lord and Mammon Marie. You put “church authority” on the same level as the life, death, and resurrection of JESUS?
After the death and resurrection of Christ, you have no other place to turn to but to the Church of Christ. That is what you seem to be missing. You have skipped or ignored that and just picked up the Bible or some writing elsewhere and are attempting to recreate and image of Christ in your understanding. That is like trying to visualize a difficult physics concept without knowing anything about physics. In other words, most likely you will get it wrong.

The Church is in charge of teaching about Christ and his teachings. That is your primary source. You cannot judge the Church using other sources.
 
OK folks I’m leaving this thread.

Thank you to all who were so kind and generous and shared the Love of Christ by giving your support and advice and even your prayers! YOU are the heart of this site, those like you who live their faith, and why I stay on this site.

And then…well, one upmanship, arrogance, lack of empathy, rushing to judgment, pointing fingers…the world offers plenty of those things. I don’t want to engage such because I posted out of an attempt to resolve a problem. Anything that comes between me and Jesus is a problem. I want to hear it and see it, clearly, without obfuscation and I do not want to be led astray by man-made rules. So I shared my problem and some kicked me around a bit, which I rather expect from people anyway.

God bless you all.
I think that part of the problem was that people couldn’t understand what you were referring to, and thus your allegations against the Church seemed extreme *to us who were reading. *Several people asked for clarification so that we could better understand what you meant.

It was as if you brought up two separate topics, one of which was somewhat hidden behind that other. Those of us who could relate to your frustation and who have had experience resolving that particular type of tension were able to address that topic; others wanted to help you with your other topic but were at a loss due to a lack of information.
 
I think that part of the problem was that people couldn’t understand what you were referring to, and thus your allegations against the Church seemed extreme *to us who were reading. *Several people asked for clarification so that we could better understand what you meant.

It was as if you brought up two separate topics, one of which was somewhat hidden behind that other. Those of us who could relate to your frustation and who have had experience resolving that particular type of tension were able to address that topic; others wanted to help you with your other topic but were at a loss due to a lack of information.
We do our best in a spirit of love and good will. 🙂
 
In elzeena’s presentation I hear a primal cry. “I want to reconcile with my God and I don’t think I can!” I can’t read her heart, but it seems to be something like that.
Actually, I am reconciled to God. My “cry” is: There’s something wrong here but I don’t know exactly what it is." Thank you for your post and the time it took to share, I much appreciate it. One other person (sorry I can’t recall the poster’s name) seems to have insinuated that I “just picked up a Bible…” I was raised a Roman Catholic and had twelve years of Catholic education. I actually DID “just pick up a Bible” because of the Bay Shore Assembly of God back in 1985, and subsequently many other bibles in two other churches. I know my Bible at this point. I think I’m allowed to express my frustration with man-made rules and regulations that are so obscure God could not possibly condone them. Jesus’ message was simple, for simple people and to be understood clearly by all without having to memorize hundreds of pages of catechesis. I’m fairly certain of this.
 
I know well what the Shema is. I can pray in Hebrew, in fact I can keep up with most practicing Jews, in Hebrew, in Temple. Yes, He was saying the Shema in a new way, He incorporated its heart into His prayer instruction and the people knew that because every single one of them, illiterate or not, could pray the Shema.

“pass the ammunition…” not funny. I lost a child that way. Wrong forum, try the Sig Sauer site.
Poor choice of words, yes, but I’m sure he didn’t mean anything by it and am sure he did not know that you lost a child, just as most who I have not told would not know that I lost a child to Leukemia.

I’d really like to understand how in the Lord’s Prayer/Our Father is Jesus praying the Shema in a new way, and I say that with all sincerity. The claim is provacative, and I mean that in a good way - it provokes me to want to learn more, to know more.

Can you explain how it is that the Our Father is a new way of praying the Shema? I am sincerely interested and would be most grateful.

-Tim-
 
Actually, I am reconciled to God. My “cry” is: There’s something wrong here but I don’t know exactly what it is." Thank you for your post and the time it took to share, I much appreciate it. One other person (sorry I can’t recall the poster’s name) seems to have insinuated that I “just picked up a Bible…” I was raised a Roman Catholic and had twelve years of Catholic education. I actually DID “just pick up a Bible” because of the Bay Shore Assembly of God back in 1985, and subsequently many other bibles in two other churches. I know my Bible at this point. I think I’m allowed to express my frustration with man-made rules and regulations that are so obscure God could not possibly condone them. Jesus’ message was simple, for simple people and to be understood clearly by all without having to memorize hundreds of pages of catechesis. I’m fairly certain of this.
I grew up in Miller Place.

-Tim-
 
Pride goeth before destruction.

If we have a problem with the Church’s rules, then the problem is within us, not with the Church.
 
I’d really like to understand how in the Lord’s Prayer/Our Father is Jesus praying the Shema in a new way, and I say that with all sincerity. The claim is provacative, and I mean that in a good way - it provokes me to want to learn more, to know more.

Can you explain how it is that the Our Father is a new way of praying the Shema? I am sincerely interested and would be most grateful.
-Tim-
Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
V’ahav’ta eit Adonai Elohekha b’khol l’vav’kha uv’khol naf’sh’kha uv’khol m’odekha.

translation further:
It shall be, that if you obey My commandments that I command you this day to love the Lord your God and serve Him with all Your heart and with all your soul, then will I send the rain for your land in its season, the early [autumn] rain and the late [spring] rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine, and your oil. And I will provide grass in your field for your cattle, and you shall eat and be sated. Be careful that your heart be not tempted and you turn away to serve other gods and bow to them. For then God will be furious with you and will block the heavens and there will be no rain and the land will not yield its produce, and you will perish quickly from the good land that God gives you. Take these My words to your hearts and to your souls, and bind them for a sign on your hands and for frontlets between your eyes. Teach them to your children: to speak them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise up. Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. So that your days and the days of your children may be prolonged upon the land, which God swore to give to your forefathers, as the days of the heavens [are prolonged] upon the earth.

essentially: incorporating His teachings about God and our relationship in a far simpler manner and leaving out the teachings/traditions with which the Jewish people had become burdened to the point where it was becoming impossible for them to understand and fulfill them and had disrupted their essential relationship with God.

Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad. Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom forever and ever.
V’ahav’ta eit Adonai Elohekha b’khol l’vav’kha uv’khol naf’sh’kha uv’khol m’odekha
And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
The remainder of the Shema, which incorporates tradition and reminds of the commandments, interpreted far more simply and with greater communication of love and ongoing relationship between God and His creatures: Give us this day our daily bread …
(V’natati m’tar ar’tz’khem b’ito yoreh umal’kosh
v’asaf’ta d’ganekha v’tirosh’kha v’yitz’harekha.
That I will give rain to your land, the early and the late rains,
that you may gather in your grain, your wine and your oil.) et al.

and forgive us our sins (failures and turning away) as we forgive those who sin against us (this is the “new” commandment):

(Hisham’ru lakhem pen yif’teh l’vav’khem
v’sar’tem va’avad’tem Elohim acheirim v’hish’tachavitem lahem
Beware, lest your heart be deceived
and you turn and serve other gods and worship them.)

And do not allow us to be led into temptation or sin but deliver us from the evil one (Jesus actually used words that mean: “the evil one”, not simply “evil”):
(L’ma’an tiz’k’ru va’asitem et kol mitz’votai viyitem k’doshim lei’loheikhem
In order to remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.)

v’asu lahem tzitzit al kan’fei vig’deihem l’dorotam
v’nat’nu al tzitzit hakanaf p’til t’kheilet
they should make themselves tzitzit (fringes) on the corners of their clothing throughout their generations,
and give the tzitzit of each corner a thread of blue.

This tradition had become almost a superstition. Some Hebrew prayer is/can be almost superstitious (in the manner it was and is used, at times). This prayer is known to all Jews and always has been. Most of them (in the time of Jesus) were illiterate and learned through oral teachings and repetition (which is essentially what the New Testament was in its early days). I really think Jesus was changing the Shema here but I could be wrong. I am almost always wrong. 😊
 
Pride goeth before destruction.

If we have a problem with the Church’s rules, then the problem is within us, not with the Church.
I’m not going to destruction. I have no pride. That is my sin, my inability to see me as God obviously sees me. I’m certain it offends Him. As for “problem with the church’s rules, then the problem is within us, not with the church”…quite an indoctrinated statement. Do you think that God agrees with you? The Church has “taught” many things it has since recanted. For one, eating meat on Friday was considered a mortal sin when I was a child. That was recanted. What happened to all the souls who died in “mortal sin” because they ate meat? You think God is that small? Free will implies we also use discernment. If what we are instructed flies in the face of any reasonable ability to perform, then I think the instructor(s) are losing souls because people turn away out of fear and guilt and disgust.
 
Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
V’ahav’ta eit Adonai Elohekha b’khol l’vav’kha uv’khol naf’sh’kha uv’khol m’odekha.

translation further:
It shall be, that if you obey My commandments that I command you this day to love the Lord your God and serve Him with all Your heart and with all your soul, then will I send the rain for your land in its season, the early [autumn] rain and the late [spring] rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine, and your oil. And I will provide grass in your field for your cattle, and you shall eat and be sated. Be careful that your heart be not tempted and you turn away to serve other gods and bow to them. For then God will be furious with you and will block the heavens and there will be no rain and the land will not yield its produce, and you will perish quickly from the good land that God gives you. Take these My words to your hearts and to your souls, and bind them for a sign on your hands and for frontlets between your eyes. Teach them to your children: to speak them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise up. Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. So that your days and the days of your children may be prolonged upon the land, which God swore to give to your forefathers, as the days of the heavens [are prolonged] upon the earth.

essentially: incorporating His teachings about God and our relationship in a far simpler manner and leaving out the teachings/traditions with which the Jewish people had become burdened to the point where it was becoming impossible for them to understand and fulfill them and had disrupted their essential relationship with God.

Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad. Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom forever and ever.
V’ahav’ta eit Adonai Elohekha b’khol l’vav’kha uv’khol naf’sh’kha uv’khol m’odekha
And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
The remainder of the Shema, which incorporates tradition and reminds of the commandments, interpreted far more simply and with greater communication of love and ongoing relationship between God and His creatures: Give us this day our daily bread …
(V’natati m’tar ar’tz’khem b’ito yoreh umal’kosh
v’asaf’ta d’ganekha v’tirosh’kha v’yitz’harekha.
That I will give rain to your land, the early and the late rains,
that you may gather in your grain, your wine and your oil.) et al.

and forgive us our sins (failures and turning away) as we forgive those who sin against us (this is the “new” commandment):

(Hisham’ru lakhem pen yif’teh l’vav’khem
v’sar’tem va’avad’tem Elohim acheirim v’hish’tachavitem lahem
Beware, lest your heart be deceived
and you turn and serve other gods and worship them.)

And do not allow us to be led into temptation or sin but deliver us from the evil one (Jesus actually used words that mean: “the evil one”, not simply “evil”):
(L’ma’an tiz’k’ru va’asitem et kol mitz’votai viyitem k’doshim lei’loheikhem
In order to remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.)

v’asu lahem tzitzit al kan’fei vig’deihem l’dorotam
v’nat’nu al tzitzit hakanaf p’til t’kheilet
they should make themselves tzitzit (fringes) on the corners of their clothing throughout their generations,
and give the tzitzit of each corner a thread of blue.

This tradition had become almost a superstition. Some Hebrew prayer is/can be almost superstitious (in the manner it was and is used, at times). This prayer is known to all Jews and always has been. Most of them (in the time of Jesus) were illiterate and learned through oral teachings and repetition (which is essentially what the New Testament was in its early days). I really think Jesus was changing the Shema here but I could be wrong. I am almost always wrong. 😊
I could be wrong, too, but it just doesn’t seem like Jesus was working off the Shema so much as in contrast to it and Jewish prayer in general, ellzeena, and I am a bit familiar as a member of my family has a Mezuzah on the doorpost of our house in response to the Shema and the Vehaya. I think Jesus was offering us a new way to pray to God and a new way to perceive of Him, not as God, Almighty and Just, although He is that, but God as Father, personal and caring-- Abba, Daddy, Father, and we as his children.
 
I could be wrong, too, but it just doesn’t seem like Jesus was working off the Shema so much as in contrast to it and Jewish prayer in general, ellzeena, and I am a bit familiar as a member of my family has a Mezuzah on the doorpost of our house in response to the Shema and the Vehaya. I think Jesus was offering us a new way to pray to God and a new way to perceive of Him, not as God, Almighty and Just, although He is that, but God as Father, personal and caring-- Abba, Daddy, Father, and we as his children.
Agreed! 👍
 
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