What Jesus knows

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tomdstone
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Tomdstone

Guest
In the Nicene Creed, said at every Mass, Catholics profess their faith in Jesus who is God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,…
Since Jesus is true God from true God, would that not mean that Jesus is all-knowing? However, in the New Testament we read
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt. 24:36
If Jesus is true God, then why would He not know the day or hour?
 
A simple way is to look at the context. Jesus spends the first part of the chapter talking in detail about the end of the world, and just before this verse he is talking about how He will return in Glory.

Now, He knew that His disciples thought the Messiah would restore the Kingdom of Israel (remember they were under Roman rule) and He knew that they were waiting for Him to tell them when He would restore it (they assumed it would be within His lifetime) however He is now going to prepare them for the fact that He will not restore the Kingdom now, but will leave them and when He leaves, some of those false “Christs” may come and talk falsely about the end of the world.

In order to make this point clear (i.e. that the Kingdom will be restored but won’t be done until He and He alone returns) He switches to hyperbole - no one knows - not man, not kings, not prophets, not false prophets, not the devil, not demons, not apostles, not angels, not even the Son - the world ends only when the Father says it ends.

Of course, Jesus knew exactly when it ends but He was making a point that his disciples cannot stand around waiting for His return - they had to prepare by preaching the good news and not listening to those who claimed to know when the Son returns.
 
In his human nature, Jesus knows all the things he learned from human experience and study, the things he learned growing up.

In his divine nature, Jesus knows all things.
 
JimG said:
In his human nature, Jesus knows all the things he learned from human experience and study, the things he learned growing up.

In his divine nature, Jesus knows all things.
Click to expand...
Yep. That is why Jesus had to learn to speak as a child, learn to walk, learn everything that a human learns. Jesus is truly man, and truly God. Two natures, one divine Person. When He speaks of that, He is referring to His human nature.
 
JimG said:
In his human nature, Jesus knows all the things he learned from human experience and study, the things he learned growing up.

In his divine nature, Jesus knows all things.
Click to expand...
Is there a split between what He knows?
 
Tomdstone said:
Is there a split between what He knows?
Click to expand...
Well, the human nature and the divine nature are not “merged.” One person–a divine person–makes use of both natures. But to say much beyond that would require one to psychoanalyze the inner workings of Jesus mind, which I doubt that any of us is qualified to do.
 
Tomdstone said:
In the Nicene Creed, said at every Mass, Catholics profess their faith in Jesus who is God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,…
Since Jesus is true God from true God, would that not mean that Jesus is all-knowing? However, in the New Testament we read
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt. 24:36
If Jesus is true God, then why would He not know the day or hour?
Click to expand...
No Jesus was not all-knowing. The uncircumscribed became circumscribed, the incorporeal became corporeal, the infinite entered time. He really, really was a human just like you or me (except for sin). He had all the limitations you and I have.
 
Seraphim73 said:
No Jesus was not all-knowing. The uncircumscribed became circumscribed, the incorporeal became corporeal, the infinite entered time. He really, really was a human just like you or me (except for sin). He had all the limitations you and I have.
Click to expand...
So, Jesus was true God, but not all knowing?
 
Tomdstone said:
So, Jesus was true God, but not all knowing?
Click to expand...
No He was not all knowing because He was a man. He was (and is) God become flesh. He didn’t just indwell a human or unite Himself to a human or use a human body like a shell, He actually, literally became a human with all the qualities and characteristics of humanity. He was tempted just like us and He suffered just like us and He had all the same human limitations we do. As St Paul says he was like us in every way except for sin. That’s the real miracle, God chose to accept human limitations in order to save us.
 
Seraphim73 said:
He was (and is) God become flesh. He didn’t just indwell a human or unite Himself to a human or use a human body like a shell, He actually, literally became a human with all the qualities and characteristics of humanity. He was tempted just like us and He suffered just like us and He had all the same human limitations we do. As St Paul says he was like us in every way except for sin.
Click to expand...
So are you saying that He was true God from true God, but not all knowing?
 
Seraphim73 said:
Look at my edit. 😉
Click to expand...
Not clear. On the one hand Jesus is true God. Yet on the other hand He does not know the day or the hour - unless this is supposed to be taken metaphorically and not literally. Still, it seems like a Person would either know or not know whether something would happen.
 
Tomdstone said:
Not clear. On the one hand Jesus is true God. Yet on the other hand He does not know the day or the hour - unless this is supposed to be taken metaphorically and not literally. Still, it seems like a Person would either know or not know whether something would happen.
Click to expand...
It’s perfectly clear. Humans are not omniscient and Jesus really was a human. Think about it, Jesus really did die on the cross. God cannot die, so the only way Jesus could die is if He really was a human. God is infinite, perfect, beyond all being, but He accepted circumscription and limitation for our sake by becoming human.

No one ever listens to these when I post them but I’m gonna do it again anyway. 😛

This is a podcast from Fr Thomas Hopko. It discusses in detail what we are talking about. I would encourage you to take the time to listen, I think you will like it.

The Incarnation - Do We Really Believe It?
 
Seraphim73 said:
No Jesus was not all-knowing. The uncircumscribed became circumscribed, the incorporeal became corporeal, the infinite entered time. He really, really was a human just like you or me (except for sin). He had all the limitations you and I have.
Click to expand...
It’s quite true that Jesus was fully human in every respect except sin. He had a human body and soul, limited human knowledge, a human ability to experience pain and suffering.

That’s all true. But we must simultaneously hold the thought that the Person who is the subject of this fully human nature, was and remains the second Person of the Holy Trinity, eternally united to the one divine nature.

The person of Jesus could not simply split off his divinity. His divinity is eternal. He is one person with two natures, human and divine.
 
Seraphim73 said:
It’s perfectly clear. Humans are not omniscient and Jesus really was a human. Think about it, Jesus really did die on the cross. God cannot die, so the only way Jesus could die is if He really was a human. God is infinite, perfect, beyond all being, but He accepted circumscription and limitation for our sake by becoming human.

No one ever listens to these when I post them but I’m gonna do it again anyway. 😛

This is a podcast from Fr Thomas Hopko. It discusses in detail what we are talking about. I would encourage you to take the time to listen, I think you will like it.

The Incarnation - Do We Really Believe It?
Click to expand...
What is death? It is the separation of the human soul from the human body. So it’s true that when Jesus became man he could suffer death by the violent separation of his human body and soul.
His divinity is not affected by that.
 
JimG said:
It’s quite true that Jesus was fully human in every respect except sin. He had a human body and soul, limited human knowledge, a human ability to experience pain and suffering.

That’s all true. But we must simultaneously hold the thought that the Person who is the subject of this fully human nature, was and remains the second Person of the Holy Trinity, eternally united to the one divine nature.

The person of Jesus could not simply split off his divinity. His divinity is eternal. He is one person with two natures, human and divine.
Click to expand...
We are saying the same thing. The question was if Jesus was all knowing. If He really became a human then the answer has to be no, otherwise He didn’t fully assume human nature, and as St Gregory the Theologian said that which is not assumed is not saved.
 
Seraphim73 said:
We are saying the same thing. The question was if Jesus was all knowing. If He really became a human then the answer has to be no, otherwise He didn’t fully assume human nature, and as St Gregory the Theologian said that which is not assumed is not saved.
Click to expand...
As man, Jesus was not all knowing. I agree. But Jesus was not solely man, but also God. How he experienced that as man, I cannot say.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top