What Jews Look For in a Messiah

[Valke2]

I know you you said that it remains debatable. And that’s why I am confused with this statement…

5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

Indeed, if he must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, then whether or not the Messiah has to actually be the one to rebuild the Temple is not actually debateable after all. So, according to you, he must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem-- so there appears to be no debate required.

So which is it – must the Messiah rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem or not?

Because that statement is the generally held orthodox view.

 

[ricmat]

I guess the answer would be that we are to be a light on to all nations, through the keeping of all God’s commandments. It is a difficult question to answer, other than to stress the importance of keeping the covenantal relationship with God. I think I’m having trouble understanding what you mean by “scope and intent.”

You originally brought up “scope and intent” with these words:

But if you are teaching that Jesus was God in the flesh, you are teaching a concept that is outside the scope and intent of Judaism and therefore, you are really in a whole other religion

and I responded:

(IMHO) Christians see the intent of Judaism as being the key instrument of mankind’s salvation / reconciliation with God, and the scope of this intent as all of humanity.

It seems a bit peculiar that Christians have a higher regard for the role of Judaism in God’s plans than Jews do.

Am I missing something?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Those precepts and statutes will be restored at the time of the Messiah. However, as to sacrifices, there is debate as to the necessity of returning to them, it being believed by some that God issued those commandments because we were used to giving animial sacrifices and that He wanted to make sure they were done in a way that asserted His Oneness, rather than being done to a false idol (i.e., the Gold Calf).

So does this mean that some precepts and statutes of the Torah can be temporarilly suspended until the Messiah comes?

And, if this is so, then how can it be said that the statutes and precepts of your Torah remain forever, and that nothing can be taken from them?

Even if they are only temporary, it is clear that some statutes and precepts of the Torah can be temporarilly taken away for a significant amount of time anyway.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

We’ll probably have to take his word for it.

I’m not trying to badger you at all, but don’t you consider this to be problematic? I suppose you can say “God will know who descends from the line of King David” and that will be true. But how will the people know? I would think that it would not be listed in the top 8 things you are looking for in the Messiah, if it can’t be proven to the Jewish people. But, of course, that is just my two cents.

It is interesting to me that the belief is that all the Jewish people will follow God’s commandments and that he will rule when there is world wide peace. Because of the sinfulness of man, I cannot imagine that happening without the Messiah being Divine. How is a mere man to accomplish eradicating sin? Perhaps I’m taking it more literally than intended?

 

[Valke2]

You originally brought up “scope and intent” with these words:

But if you are teaching that Jesus was God in the flesh, you are teaching a concept that is outside the scope and intent of Judaism and therefore, you are really in a whole other religion

and I responded:

(IMHO) Christians see the intent of Judaism as being the key instrument of mankind’s salvation / reconciliation with God, and the scope of this intent as all of humanity.

It seems a bit peculiar that Christians have a higher regard for the role of Judaism in God’s plans than Jews do.

Am I missing something?

I think that is because of how we view salvation. It is not something that we work toward but rather something we have already been given. As far as God’s plan for the Jews, it is spelled out in the brit/covenant. It isn’t to have the world convert to Judaism, but rather to have the world worship the one God. I guess saying we are to lead by example would be one way of putting it.

 

[Valke2]

So does this mean that some precepts and statutes of the Torah can be temporarilly suspended until the Messiah comes?

And, if this is so, then how can it be said that the statutes and precepts of your Torah remain forever, and that nothing can be taken from them?

Even if they are only temporary, it is clear that some statutes and precepts of the Torah can be temporarilly taken away for a significant amount of time anyway.

If they can’t be done, they can’t be done. If we don’t have a Temple we can’t do sacrifices. It is not that we are failing to keep God’s commandment by not doing sacrifices.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If they can’t be done, they can’t be done. If we don’t have a Temple we can’t do sacrifices. It is not that we are failing to keep God’s commandment by not doing sacrifices.

If they can’t be done, then it can’t be claimed that the statutes and precepts of the Torah remain forever. Neither can it be claimed that nothing can be taken from them either.

 

[Valke2]

I’m not trying to badger you at all, but don’t you consider this to be problematic? I suppose you can say “God will know who descends from the line of King David” and that will be true. But how will the people know? I would think that it would not be listed in the top 8 things you are looking for in the Messiah, if it can’t be proven to the Jewish people. But, of course, that is just my two cents.

It is interesting to me that the belief is that all the Jewish people will follow God’s commandments and that he will rule when there is world wide peace. Because of the sinfulness of man, I cannot imagine that happening without the Messiah being Divine. How is a mere man to accomplish eradicating sin? Perhaps I’m taking it more literally than intended?

I don’t know. Other than to say if he meets all the other conditions, it will be easier to accept without proof his lineage. On the other hand, there may indeed be proof at the time. I’ll let you know.

It is not the Divinity of the Messiah that will be necessary. It is possible these things may require Divine intervention, but that doesn’t mean that such intervention would come from Messiah.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Because that statement is the generally held orthodox view.

I understand that-- and I actually respect it.

But wouldn’t it be more clear to redact this as follows?

5. He may or may not rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem-- although we have good reasons to believe that if anyone rebuilds the Temple, it will most likely be the Messiah who does so. In fact, if anyone succeeds in building the Temple, this may be taken to be a sign from God that this man may indeed be the Messiah.

 

[Karin]

Gods’ need not apply. THe Jewish Messiah will be a human being and not God in the flesh. Everything I’m posting regarding the requirements can be found in the Jews for Judaism website.

1. He has to be Jewish. “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the Lord your God shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2. He will be a member from the tribe of Judah. “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10).

Notice one and two are really applicable to any annointed jewish ruler. The requirements of all kings, inlcuding the Messiah see to be embraced in these two Torah verses.

1. He will be a direct descendant of King David and King Solomon. “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
2. All the Jews will return to Israel. “And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)
3. **He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem **- “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them…” (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27) This is a condition that must be met. Whether or not the Messiah has to actually be the one to rebuild the Temple remains debateable.
4. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

7.**He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments - **“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

8 **He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God **- “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the Lord” (Isaiah 66:23).

All of the above must be fullfilled. We don’t believe they have to date.

Eden had mentioned in another thread, Rambam’s view on the Messiah. I’ll address that in the next post.

very interesting…
in regards to #4…does this mean all Jews through out the world…even Jews that do not practice the religion of Judiasm?
in regards to #7 all jews will follow GOd’s commandments…are those just the 10 commandments or are you refering to the 600 plus or minus a few that Orthodox Jews follow (kosher, etc.)?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I don’t know. Other than to say if he meets all the other conditions, it will be easier to accept without proof his lineage. On the other hand, there may indeed be proof at the time. I’ll let you know.

It is not the Divinity of the Messiah that will be necessary. It is possible these things may require Divine intervention, but that doesn’t mean that such intervention would come from Messiah.

Oh, ok, I think I understand more now. Thanks.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

How can this be done? Almost all people have through them (Jesus and Mohammed) become acquainted with the idea of messiah, with the words of the Torah and the Divine precepts. Through them the knowledge of the Bible spread even unto the remotest islands and unto many nations ‘uncircumcised’ in heart and uncircumcised in flesh. These nations seek to justify their disobedience to the precepts of the Torah. Some of them say that these precepts are Divine, but are not in force at present, and were never intended to be permanent laws. Others maintain that they must not be taken literally, as they are mere symbols, the meaning of which has already been explained by their ‘messiah’. But when the true King Messiah will rise, he will prosper, be high and exalted. All will then at once know that it was falsehood what their fathers have inherited, and that their prophets and their teachers have misled them.

It is not because they desired to have dominion over all lands and nations and be honored by all people, or because they desired to have plenty to eat and drink and other pleasures, that the wise men and the prophets longed for the days of the messiah, but because they would then be at leisure to study the Torah and its teachings without being interrupted by any oppressor, and would thus make themselves worthy of life in the World to Come.

There will not be in those days any famine, war, jealousy, or quarrel, because the good things will be in plenty and even luxuries will be found everywhere. All people will busy themselves with trying to know the L-rd. Therefore, the Israelites will be great sages, knowing things which are at present hidden. They will obtain a knowledge of their Creator as far as possible by human understanding; `For the earth shall be full with the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea.’ (Isaiah 11:9).

Mikvah?

 

[Valke2]

very interesting…
in regards to #4…does this mean all Jews through out the world…even Jews that do not practice the religion of Judiasm?
in regards to #7 all jews will follow GOd’s commandments…are those just the 10 commandments or are you refering to the 600 plus or minus a few that Orthodox Jews follow (kosher, etc.)?

As far as I know, all the Jews and all the commandments (the 600 plus).

 

[Karin]

As far as I know, all the Jews and all the commandments (the 600 plus).

thanks valke,

 

[Valke2]

If they can’t be done, then it can’t be claimed that the statutes and precepts of the Torah remain forever. Neither can it be claimed that nothing can be taken from them either.

Sure it can. We still keep all the precepts and statutes. If I am not a farmer, I don’t have to worry about keeping the corners of my fields unharvested so that the poor can take from them. That doesn’t mean I am not keeping the law. It just means that law is not one that I am required to comply with.

 

[kellie]

Hi Valke,

I find Judaism fascinating, and I just have one question for you.

Does Judaism have any theories as to how long they will have to wait until their Messiah does come?

Are there any hints in Scripture?

 

[Valke2]

Hi Valke,

I find Judaism fascinating, and I just have one question for you.

Does Judaism have any theories as to how long they will have to wait until their Messiah does come?

Are there any hints in Scripture?

there’s something in scripture that is used to calculate around 2,000 or so years (so the time draws nigh). I think it has something to do with the book of Daniel. But, even though I don’t know too much about this, I can almost guaranty that there is a fall back position. Generally, we believe it is contigent on our behavior. He’ll come either when he is most needed (when we’re at our worst) or when we are at our best and deserve him. (Take your pick).

As set forth in the Judaism101 website, each of the following have been given as criteria for when he’ll come:

if Israel repented a single day;
if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
in a generation that loses hope;
in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;

 

[kellie]

That Judaism101 site is great Valke, thanks heaps, I am reading through it now

 

[Valke2]

To derail the thread a bit, how will Christians know that Jesus is Jesus when he returns?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

At the risk of sounding short, “every knee will bow”

Mat 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It wont be another Silent Night.

ps further derail ( I watched a show on History channel on Exodus and would welcome your thoughts, they moved the thread to media, if you wouldnt mind checking it out.