What Joseph Smith got right...

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I have read this rebuttal before and I understand the point. However, he was appointed by a prophet/seer/revelator - one would think the prophet would not have made an error in selecting Orson Pratt to publish the church’s work.

Really, anyone can decide after the fact that the prophet’s choice was a mistake. Prophets shouldn’t make mistakes such as these if they are truly led by God.
Lax16,

It appears to me that the Holy Ghost allowed Brigham Young to send Orson Pratt to Washington D.C. and publish to “defend” the LDS church, knowing of course that it would be both a sort of “test” for Orson Pratt (would he publish wisely and prudently?) and later a “test” for people in the church and out of the church looking at history (would they make a big deal about one man’s opinions, and not seek the Holy Ghost for themselves and instead make excuses using a poor example?).

The Holy Ghost is the pure teacher of truth–not Orson Pratt, of course. He wrote as an uninspired person with “outlandish” opinions on certain issues–and God allowed him to do that. But the outcome serves as a sifter, and that accomplishes God’s purposes.
 
Jesus promised to be with us until the end and that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church. If the Holy Spirit ceased to guide the Church and it fell into complete apostasy then when did the Holy Spirit return to guide the Mormons?
Why would the Holy Spirit be trusted this time to get it right?
You say that Jesus Christ assigned his 12 Apostles to administer it under the direction of the Father - then what happened to it? God was wrong - Jesus couldn’t “keep his church together” (in the words of Joseph Smith)?
Why couldn’t Jesus keep His Church together with the 12 He chose and with the gifts given them by the Holy Spirit?
Jesus and the Apostles warned of the impending falling away.
The 12 Apostles did indeed select successors…when they were able to get together. But they were not always able to get together as they were sent out into the world to preach the gospel. They also took the time to write letters to different congregations throughout the region trying to stem the tide of the apostacy that was going on at the time.
In Acts 20, Paul had this to say about the coming apostacy:
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Paul is talking about internal falling away that was to happen. He worked for 3 years with tears…tears because of the knowledge that in spite of all his work, there would still be an apostacy.
 
Paul is talking about internal falling away that was to happen. He worked for 3 years with tears…tears because of the knowledge that in spite of all his work, there would still be an apostacy.
That would be declaring that any and every Christian Church is false and that only the Mormons have it right… but you wouldn’t be the first one to do that. Wilford Woodruff (4th president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and John Taylor (3rd president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) did it in the 19th century…
The Gospel has gone forth in our day in its true glory, power, order, and light as it always did when God had a people among men that He acknowledged. The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for, and the Apostles spilled their blood to vindicate, is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world, and unfolded unto him the gross darkness that surrounded the nations, those scenes that should take place in this generation, and would follow each other in quick succession, even unto the coming of the Messiah. The angel taught Joseph Smith those principles which are necessary for the salvation of the world ; and the Lord gave him commandments, and sealed upon him the Priesthood, and gave him power to administer the ordinances of the house of the Lord. He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world, that the people had turned away from His true order, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, and inherited lies and things wherein their was no profit.
(Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, Volume 2, Page 196-197, 1855)
Taylor denounces every Christian Church quite clearly and in terms that are partly most unsettling:
Where did the different religious sects get their authority from? Who ordained them to minister in the name of God? Who gave them that authority? The Church of England gave authority to all the seeding sects that have sprung out of her, and they left her because she was corrupt. Where did the Church of England obtain her authority? From the Church of Rome, which they say is the mother of harlots and the abomination of all things. Where does the Church of Rome obtain her authority? They tell you that they get it down in an unbroken chain of descent from the Apostles’ times. Their statement is the most reasonable, rational and consistent of them all. The Greek Church professes to be governed by the same authority. When we apply a test to them we find that they do not stand upon a very good foundation. When, and wherein, and how have they departed from the true authority of God? I will quote a certain Scripture by one of the old Apostles, “He that transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God.” Do they abide in the doctrine of Christ? I think not.
Who taught them to sprinkle little children? Did the Gospel of Jesus Christ teach them this? No. But they rely on an unbroken descent for their authority. In answer to this, the Protestants tell them that the chain of their Popedom had been broken at different time. I do not care whether it has or not. If the Pope transgressed, it is not to say that the bishops and priests and the whole community did; this would not be a sufficient argument to satisfy me that the Roman Catholics had departed from the faith of Christ; but when they gathered together the authorities of the church from all the world in a solemn conclave, as they did at the councils of Nice and Trent, and passed resolutions which admitted of doctrines and principles in direct violation of the laws of God and of the Church of God, then as a church, with the voice of their representatives they forsook God and introduced the doctrines of men. “He that transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God;” and if they do not abide in the doctrine of Christ they do not retain their priesthood and authority to administer in the ordinances of God. Then we are left without authority on the earth.
Shall we go to the Greek Church for the true authority? It is based pretty much upon the same principle as the Roman Catholic Church is, and all the sectarian bodies of Christendom are as destitute of the true authority of God as the mother church is.
Where shall we look for the true authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom. There is no people that have held communion with God, no true church, priesthood or authority, no medium of communication between God and man for church government, to dictate, regulate, manage and control the affairs of his kingdom upon the earth.
How did this state of things called Mormonism originate? We read an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith and manifested unto him in vision the true position of the world in a religious point of view. He was surrounded with light and glory while the heavenly messenger communicated these things unto him, after a series of visitations and communications from the Apostle Peter and others who held the authority of the holy Priesthood, not only on the earth formerly but in the heaves afterwards.
(John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, Page 126-127, 1863)
George A. Smith does the same thing in 1863 and 1869.
Joseph Smith himself state the same in the Peral of Great Price (p. 49) in 1842.
Bruce McConkie elaborates on it in “Mormon Doctrine” (1958 ed., p. 130)
 
SnakeMauler I started to read your post with slight interest. The Mormons used to hound me in Spain. But your article is brillant. I never thought of it. All these born agains running around with a verse or two but you hit the nail on the head.
 
I am not sure why you are asking this? Mormons believe that all churches, except theirs, is an abomination and apostate.
Some of the Eastern churches are still in communion with Rome…again, I don’t understand the question.
I was joking because uneducated Protestants like to throw around the word “Roman” Catholic (as if there’s no other kinds of Catholics out there, even if they are in communion with Rome. I’m just one who likes to be precise and 100% politically correct. They just use “Roman” almost like an insult for some odd reason. Then again, Joseph Smith probably had no idea what a “byzantine rite” catholic was).
 
SnakeMauler I started to read your post with slight interest. The Mormons used to hound me in Spain. But your article is brillant. I never thought of it. All these born agains running around with a verse or two but you hit the nail on the head.
Thanks bro 👍
 
That would be declaring that any and every Christian Church is false and that only the Mormons have it right… but you wouldn’t be the first one to do that. Wilford Woodruff (4th president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and John Taylor (3rd president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) did it in the 19th century…

Taylor denounces every Christian Church quite clearly and in terms that are partly most unsettling:

George A. Smith does the same thing in 1863 and 1869.
Joseph Smith himself state the same in the Peral of Great Price (p. 49) in 1842.
Bruce McConkie elaborates on it in “Mormon Doctrine” (1958 ed., p. 130)
Which part is it that you find most unsettling? From my reading, it says nothing worse than than any other church proclaims.
As a side note, you may not want to rely on Mormon Doctrine as authoritive, especially the 1958 edition, as Bruce R. McConkie was reprimanded for it and the church never endorsed it. Though there are a lot of truths in it, not everything in it is endorsed by the church.
 
As a side note, you may not want to rely on Mormon Doctrine as authoritive, especially the 1958 edition, as Bruce R. McConkie was reprimanded for it and the church never endorsed it. Though there are a lot of truths in it, not everything in it is endorsed by the church.
Flyonthewall, just so you know, thirty years or so ago when my brother was getting read for a LDS mission, the letter with his mission calling included a list of required items that he had to bring with him. One was the book “Mormon Doctrine”.
 
Which part is it that you find most unsettling? From my reading, it says nothing worse than than any other church proclaims.
There are several things that I would consider unsettling to say the least. I would consider it problematic for a church to claim that all the others are inherently false and to use a terminology that is in and of itself offensive towards them.
What we see in modern Christianity is not anywhere as demonizing as what we see in Mormon writings. Let me re-quote what I found in the Journal of Discourses:
“He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world, that the people had turned away from His true order, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, and inherited lies and things wherein their was no profit.”
“There is no people that have held communion with God, no true church, priesthood or authority, no medium of communication between God and man for church government, to dictate, regulate, manage and control the affairs of his kingdom upon the earth.”
These teachings are claiming that nobody, but the LDS church has any connection with God and that all Christian churches are inherently and completely false, without authority, not being true churches at all.
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
(Joseph Smith; Pearl of Great Price; Page 49; 1842)
As a side note, you may not want to rely on Mormon Doctrine as authoritive, especially the 1958 edition, as Bruce R. McConkie was reprimanded for it and the church never endorsed it. Though there are a lot of truths in it, not everything in it is endorsed by the church.
I didn’t rely on him. If what he said however is mirrored in the Pearl of Great Price and also in different other writings that are more authoritative, then I expect him to be right in this area of Mormon Doctrine, even though this book was not fully endorsed and he was reprimanded for it. He is, so to speak, another reference that is being authenticated by others who said the same thing or indicate the same thing.
If however it was not endorsed in any way, I wonder why it was still in print and I wonder why this fact just surfaced:
Flyonthewall, just so you know, thirty years or so ago when my brother was getting read for a LDS mission, the letter with his mission calling included a list of required items that he had to bring with him. One was the book “Mormon Doctrine”.
I understand however why there was criticism. It was about his language, his clearness and his directness… It was certainly not politically correct. That is also why I assume that the LDS church just recently quit publishing the book. It still does show the fruits of the LDS church as it was one of their most prominent members who wrote this in reference to the BoM.
It is also the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this “church which is most abominable above other churches” in vision. He “saw the devil that he was the foundation of it” and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.
(1 Ne. 13:1-10)
He saw that this most abominable of all churches was founded after the day of Christ and his apostles; that it took away from the gospel of the Lamb many covenants and many plain and precious parts; that it perverted the right ways of the Lord; that it deleted many teachings from the Bible; that this church was the “mother of harlots;” and finally that the Lord would again restore the gospel of salvation
(1 Ne. 13:24-42)
Nephi beheld further that this church was the “mother of abominations,” and “the whore of all the earth” who “sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.”
(Bruce McConkie; Mormon Doctrine; page 130; 1958)
All of this is based upon what Joseph Smith taught, even though he might not have intended the harshness of Bruce McConkie’s writings. “Mormonism as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds the world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.
If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures.” This is and will continue to be the one thing that will break or validate Mormonism. It all hinges on the statements of one man and on the degree of his truthfulness.

I don’t really expect you to agree with me considering this:
Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the “prophets, seers, or revelators” of the Church, is cultivating the spirit of apostacy.
(Ward Teachers Message; Deseret News, Church Section; Page 5; May 26, 1945)
 
Lax16,

It appears to me that the Holy Ghost allowed Brigham Young to send Orson Pratt to Washington D.C. and publish to “defend” the LDS church, knowing of course that it would be both a sort of “test” for Orson Pratt (would he publish wisely and prudently?) and later a “test” for people in the church and out of the church looking at history (would they make a big deal about one man’s opinions, and not seek the Holy Ghost for themselves and instead make excuses using a poor example?).

The Holy Ghost is the pure teacher of truth–not Orson Pratt, of course. He wrote as an uninspired person with “outlandish” opinions on certain issues–and God allowed him to do that. But the outcome serves as a sifter, and that accomplishes God’s purposes.
Hi Parker - Orson Pratt did more than publish a defense of the LDS church. He was a church historian and recorder and edited the BoM and D&C, he served as a missionary, and most importantly, was one the original members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

That is a lot of responsibility for someone who was “not a big deal” - (Quorum of the Twelve must have been a big deal).
and who is now being reduced to being a man who was not “a pure teacher of the truth” (and yet he was a missionary?)
He was “outlandish” (and yet church historian/recorder/editor)…

It seems to me that the opinion of him today is much less favorable than it was or I doubt he would have been given so much responsibililty.
 
There are several things that I would consider unsettling to say the least. I would consider it problematic for a church to claim that all the others are inherently false and to use a terminology that is in and of itself offensive towards them.
What we see in modern Christianity is not anywhere as demonizing as what we see in Mormon writings. Let me re-quote what I found in the Journal of Discourses:
“He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world, that the people had turned away from His true order, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, and inherited lies and things wherein their was no profit.”
“There is no people that have held communion with God, no true church, priesthood or authority, no medium of communication between God and man for church government, to dictate, regulate, manage and control the affairs of his kingdom upon the earth.”
These teachings are claiming that nobody, but the LDS church has any connection with God and that all Christian churches are inherently and completely false, without authority, not being true churches at all.
I think you read more into it than was actually stated. We have never stated that all other religions are inherently and completely false. We have always maintained that ALL religions have a portion of truth to them.
There are more meanings to the word “true” than just the opposite of false.
Our claim has been that the priesthood was lost after the death of the Apostles. The priesthood being the authority to officiate and administer in the ordinances and leadership of the church. Without that authority even a true believer could not officiate or administer the real or genuine ordinances of God or lead the church.
Without the proper leadership, things went off the tracks, and philosophies of men crept in.
Now this is not to say there were not faithful believers but when the leadership goes off the tracks…
I didn’t rely on him. If what he said however is mirrored in the Pearl of Great Price and also in different other writings that are more authoritative, then I expect him to be right in this area of Mormon Doctrine, even though this book was not fully endorsed and he was reprimanded for it. He is, so to speak, another reference that is being authenticated by others who said the same thing or indicate the same thing.
If however it was not endorsed in any way, I wonder why it was still in print and I wonder why this fact just surfaced:
As I stated before, there are many truths in that book, but not everything in there is endorsed by the church. Bruce R. McConckie was discouraged from printing another edition.
I understand however why there was criticism. It was about his language, his clearness and his directness… It was certainly not politically correct. That is also why I assume that the LDS church just recently quit publishing the book. It still does show the fruits of the LDS church as it was one of their most prominent members who wrote this in reference to the BoM.
It wasn’t just language, but his opinions…yes we are allowed to have them but not to pass them off as official doctrine.
All of this is based upon what Joseph Smith taught, even though he might not have intended the harshness of Bruce McConkie’s writings. “Mormonism as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds the world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.
If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures.” This is and will continue to be the one thing that will break or validate Mormonism. It all hinges on the statements of one man and on the degree of his truthfulness.
I don’t really expect you to agree with me considering this:
I do agree with you that Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith, but the problem is what should his teachings harmonize with, if the existing teachings are not true(real, genuine, reliable, accurate). If there was an apostacy, as is prophecied in the scriptures and as taught by Joseph, then true teachings will not harmonize with what is out there.

So, what it boils down to is either there was an unbroken line of authority as the Catholics claim, in which case a restoration was not needed, or there was an apostacy, and the restoration was required.
 
Hi Parker - Orson Pratt did more than publish a defense of the LDS church. He was a church historian and recorder and edited the BoM and D&C, he served as a missionary, and most importantly, was one the original members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

That is a lot of responsibility for someone who was “not a big deal” - (Quorum of the Twelve must have been a big deal).
and who is now being reduced to being a man who was not “a pure teacher of the truth” (and yet he was a missionary?)
He was “outlandish” (and yet church historian/recorder/editor)…

It seems to me that the opinion of him today is much less favorable than it was or I doubt he would have been given so much responsibililty.
Lax16,

Those are reasonable enough points, but note that he was dropped from the Quorum of the Twelve for a period of a couple of years, and was later reinstated but lost seniority in that quorum. He was a skilled writer, so when he was asked to be Church historian and to help edit the upcoming BoM and D&C editions ten years after having written “The Seer” in Washington, D.C. then I suppose Brigham Young trusted him enough at that point to do those tasks. He had already accepted reprimand for “The Seer” and had basically accepted that it contained improper doctrine and should be ignored.

LDS missionaries are not “perfect”, nor can it be expected that in every single moment of their service they will be perfectly inspired and be a “pure teacher of the truth”. What they bring with them if they are acting sincerely, is the “pure teacher of the truth”, Who can make up for their shortfalls through direct revelation and through a pure witness to the heart of the person doing the listening (namely, the Holy Ghost). But if they act out of line, which they can do, then they haven’t access to the Spirit in that moment and they need to repent just like anyone else, and “keep quiet” until they do repent.
 
I just realized that we are nearly complete in getting everybody together. Someone should invite Diana…
 
I do agree with you that Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith, but the problem is what should his teachings harmonize with, if the existing teachings are not true(real, genuine, reliable, accurate). If there was an apostacy, as is prophecied in the scriptures and as taught by Joseph, then true teachings will not harmonize with what is out there.
If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect.

If I should go ahead and find contradictions and errors in his teaching without relying on anything but Mormon material, to make sure, what would that to if I were successful? If Mormonism stands or falls with Joseph Smith, then would showing error and contradicitons expose him as a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people? Shouldn’t he then be exposed, his claims being refuted and his doctrines be shown as false?
 
How can anyone actually follow Joseph Smith? I have read the threads here and am amazed at what I have read. He was a treasure seeker? He copied the King James version? He had many versions of his first vision?
 
If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect.

If I should go ahead and find contradictions and errors in his teaching without relying on anything but Mormon material, to make sure, what would that to if I were successful? If Mormonism stands or falls with Joseph Smith, then would showing error and contradicitons expose him as a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people? Shouldn’t he then be exposed, his claims being refuted and his doctrines be shown as false?
There are volumes of accusations that have already been made, and none have withstood scrutiny. The problem becomes that the accuser does not accept the explaination and so there is an impasse on proof. Save your efforts, and funnel them towards promoting your own faith.
 
How can anyone actually follow Joseph Smith? I have read the threads here and am amazed at what I have read. He was a treasure seeker? He copied the King James version? He had many versions of his first vision?
Of course when all the information you read is from negative accusations, what other conclusion can you arrive at?
Everything you have mentioned has been refuted and addressed.
If you are looking to disbelieve someone or something, you will always find a way.
 
Lax16,

Those are reasonable enough points, but note that he was dropped from the Quorum of the Twelve for a period of a couple of years, and was later reinstated but lost seniority in that quorum. He was a skilled writer, so when he was asked to be Church historian and to help edit the upcoming BoM and D&C editions ten years after having written “The Seer” in Washington, D.C. then I suppose Brigham Young trusted him enough at that point to do those tasks. He had already accepted reprimand for “The Seer” and had basically accepted that it contained improper doctrine and should be ignored.

Yes, I read about that time of his excommunication - quite a scandal.

LDS missionaries are not “perfect”, nor can it be expected that in every single moment of their service they will be perfectly inspired and be a “pure teacher of the truth”. What they bring with them if they are acting sincerely, is the “pure teacher of the truth”, Who can make up for their shortfalls through direct revelation and through a pure witness to the heart of the person doing the listening (namely, the Holy Ghost). But if they act out of line, which they can do, then they haven’t access to the Spirit in that moment and they need to repent just like anyone else, and “keep quiet” until they do repent.
I couldn’t agree more! Can you please tell me why when mormon missionaries/apostles/prophets etc are not perfect and that when not every single moment of their service is not inspired as pure truth it is not considered an apostasy???

However, when the first Christians were struggling to bring the faith along among great persecution - imperfect for sure - they are considered apostate?

I have never understood this. Obviously, this proves that there can be one or two “oddballs” that mean well and do some good and some not-so-good but that the religion as a whole still moves forward, right?

As Jesus promised, His Church will never fail.
 
Jesus and the Apostles warned of the impending falling away.
The 12 Apostles did indeed select successors…when they were able to get together. But they were not always able to get together as they were sent out into the world to preach the gospel. They also took the time to write letters to different congregations throughout the region trying to stem the tide of the apostacy that was going on at the time.
In Acts 20, Paul had this to say about the coming apostacy:
Paul is talking about internal falling away that was to happen. He worked for 3 years with tears…tears because of the knowledge that in spite of all his work, there would still be an apostacy.
They were warning that people would fall away - not the Church established by Jesus Christ Himself! Of course people would fall away - they are human - and there was tremendous persecution.

Yes, when the apostles went out into the world they converted thousands! They were not writing about an apostacy of the Church - it was an apostasy of their beliefs!

However, we know that they succeeded! Look at the many, many Christians today. No they/we are not perfect, but neither are Mormons and neither were there prophets. So it seems to me lack of perfection in church history does not equal apostasy.

You can talk about Paul during his persecution and imprisonment all day long. It is to be expected that he would be feeling abandoned by the people around him. However, it is Jesus’ words that matter, not Paul’s. Jesus promised to stay with us and His Church until the end.

Why would Paul’s feeling of abandonment trump Jesus’ promise of staying with us forever?
 
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