What Joseph Smith got right...

[lax16]

. Of course, he did claim to obtain it in a weird way, like the whole thing about John the Baptist materializing out of thin air and baptizing it (though I’m unsure as to weather this is the moment when he officially received “Apostolic Succession” or simply the "Aaronic Priesthood). -Snakemauler

Regarding the priesthood:

According to Doctrines & Covenants 84, the Aaronic priesthood was returned to earth after being lost, by John the Baptist on May 15, 1829. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had it conferred upon them.
Later, the Melchizedek priesthood was conferred upon them by Peter, James, and John.

Why does John the Baptist have to confer the Aaronic priesthood in order to restore it to earth?

How can the Mormon church give the Aaronic priesthood to people who have no relation to Aaron? Only the descendants of Moses’ brother Aaron could possess the Aaronic priesthood.

Why would Peter, James, and John confer the Melchizedek priesthood in an attempt to return it to earth when it never existed in the New Testament?

Where are there boy priests/deacons mentioned in the bible as in the structure of the LDS church?

btw - didn’t Oliver Cowdery leave the church? How could anyone fall away after receiving such incredible visions!?

 

[ParkerD]

I am sure you are a very good person and that you have raised your children to be the same.

No, I am not justifying my beliefs. I am always reading and studying to learn more about the church that Jesus Christ started. It always leads me to the Catholic Church.

Lax16,

Thanks for your kindness.

Rather than my guessing at the scriptures from the Bible that show from your perspective the promise about “Christ’s promise to stay with His Church”, when you have a moment could you post those references for me? (I have assumed that I had the ones in mind that you have had, but just to make sure when I respond rather than making a wrong assumption.) Thanks.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Thanks for your kindness.

Rather than my guessing at the scriptures from the Bible that show from your perspective the promise about “Christ’s promise to stay with His Church”, when you have a moment could you post those references for me? (I have assumed that I had the ones in mind that you have had, but just to make sure when I respond rather than making a wrong assumption.) Thanks.

Hi Parker - Here are some of them:

Matthew 16:18-19
12:25
28:20
John 14:26
16:12-13
Ephesians 3:21
1 Corin Chapter 2

And, of course, the volumes written by Early Church Fathers showing the work they did to keep the Church together with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ParkerD]

1. Please define an LDS “prophet.” We do not call the Pope a prophet and I know this has been said many times before on various threads. Yes, there are wise teachers, doctors, and saints of the Church, but we do not call them prophets. We do not share the same meaning it would seem.
2. Jesus’ promise isn’t what He said it was? Please stop acting as if I, and millions of other Christians, have misunderstood the words of Jesus Christ. If Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with the Church until the end, then that is exactly what He meant.
   Where in LDS teachings does it address this?
3. What do you mean by “call” new apostles? What did they need to do to “call” new apostles and how do you know they didn’t do it?
4. Of course there is free will. I am not sure what you mean by compulsion?
5. Your thoughts also come from what you are taught as a Mormon that there needed to be an apostasy so that Joseph Smith could become a prophet.
6. But Mormonism does not fulfill the OT prophecy about the Messiah and Christ’s promise to stay with His Church. (Note: see references in later post.)
7. I am sure you are a very good person and that you have raised your children to be the same. However, I do not understand how performing temple rituals is living the gospel teachings from the New Testament?
   No, I am not justifying my beliefs. I am always reading and studying to learn more about the church that Jesus Christ started. It always leads me to the Catholic Church.

Hi, Lax16,

1. When I typed the words “role of prophet” in the word search on lds.org, the first article that comes up is a talk by an LDS Seventy (Elder Christensen) with the following statements that give a good basic synopsis of the role of a prophet of God:

"The solution to the ills of the world is found in understanding the doctrines and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and the application of those principles in the lives of every human being. Divine doctrines and teachings have been taught with clarity by prophets, both ancient and modern, as moved upon by the Holy Ghost. As we hear those truths, they are communicated to our hearts and minds by that same Spirit.

As we consider the role of prophets, it is vital to understand that, first, prophets are called of God and He testifies to the world of their calling…

Second, the role of prophets is to teach of Christ and testify of His divinity and His mission…
Helaman, an ancient American prophet, taught his sons Nephi and Lehi: “And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall” (Hel. 5:12)…

The third characteristic of prophets is that their teachings are recorded and are taught by succeeding prophets and teachers…

(Source:
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=0dc1ee9ba42fe010VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

1. Jesus said as translated in the KJV Matthew 28:20, “…lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” He said this to the apostles, after He had told them to go into all the world and teach all nations and baptize “them”.

That promise was specific to those eleven apostles standing there present with Him. They were those whom He was talking to–“you”.

“You” wouldn’t be translated to mean “the church”. “Unto the end of the world” is translated from words that also mean “for evermore”. I agree that He would be with those eleven for “evermore” through the Holy Spirit being with them and through their having a continuing testimony of Him–that He still lives.

1. They “called” new apostles when the Holy Spirit guided them to do so. That is how Matthias was called, and Paul, and Barnabas. We only have the New Testament to give a glimpse of who were called as new apostles during that time, so you’re right that there may have been others called, but it seems clear that John was the last living apostle.
2. By “compulsion” I meant “feel compelled by the circumstance or by a person in authority or power”. If one feels “compelled”, then some of their sense of free choice is inhibited, limited, or taken away.
3. That would be because having read the Book of Mormon and having seen in it the fulfillment of many Old Testament prophecies, the Holy Spirit bears witness about those things being true to me as an individual after reading, studying, listening, and praying.
4. Christ fulfills the Old Testament prophecy about the Messiah, as you and I both know.

As to “Christ’s promise to stay with His church”, I’ll follow up with a separate post shortly. I’ll answer (7) then also.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - Here are some of them (regarding “Christ’s promise to stay with His Church”):

Matthew 16:18-19
12:25
28:20
John 14:26
16:12-13
Ephesians 3:21
1 Corinthians Chapter 2

And, of course, the volumes written by Early Church Fathers showing the work they did to keep the Church together with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Lax16,
The word “church” is translated from the word “ecclesia” which means “congregation of believers”. Christ’s congregation of believers was and is to be built upon the Rock of revealed knowledge that He lives and that He is their Rock and their Redeemer and Savior.

The congregation of believers gain this knowledge and keep it as they keep His commandments and do not become confused by the “wisdom of men” as Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians 2 (great citation, by the way). As they do repent, gain the knowledge of Christ, and keep the commandments, the “gates of hell” will not prevail against them; also, Christ will open the “gates of hell” and rescue those suffering torment for their sins as they pray fervently for His mercy and atoning grace to rescue them from their torment. Thus, He will have an ultimate double triumph in prevailing against the “gates of hell”.

1. The LDS temple work is for being unselfish about our use of time, to the extent of helping ancestors have the opportunity to have the actions that needed to be done on earth in their name and for them, done in their behalf so that those actions (ordinances done on earth) can be recorded in heaven if they choose to have them be efficacious. The ordinances such as baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost were taught well in the New Testament as necessary ordinances, as was the idea of being unselfish, as was the knowledge that there is a preaching of the gospel in the spirit world among the dead.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[ManOnFire]

We have no need to argue, we have not need to cast epithets at others, and we have no need to condemn. Through us the Holy Spirit is able to touch who we come into contact WHEN we are acting as his instrument. The moment we are an instrument of anger or abuse in any way of others, we cease to be instruments of the Holy Spirit at that moment.

It seems like the classic battle between childhood and adulthood. Without struggle, what motivation would there be to grow up? Deep down, most people prefer to remain in a happy, peaceful, childlike existence, without conflict. Does this mean that you believe that any new fabricated religion that emphasizes nothing but positivity is acceptable? Without the uncomfortable effort of discerning Truth, sooner or later, won’t most people ultimately choose which denomination makes them feel best, like pandering to a child? Will we ultimately fail without acknowledging that strict rules for uncomfortable adult behavior and responsiblity should exist? Are you saying that the “be happy and treat others well” religion is the best? Is that realistic? Adults should be able to agree to disagree. Most of the bickering seems to come from discerning truth versus outcomes-based feelings.

 

[flyonthewall]

Your post states: “Yet the church if full of those humans, and if the humans fall way, where does that leave the church?” and you are saying what you mean is the question: “If some of the people fall away from belief where does that leave the church?”

It leaves some very good people fighting to keep the Church alive during a time of great heresies and persecution. It leaves a Church with some very devout and brave members that has survived for 2,000 years.

You acknowledge there were heresies during that time. The scriptures speak of it too. There were some very devout and brave members trying to hang on to what they believed as they understood it.

Mormons state that the priesthood authority was gone. So…there were thousands upon thousands of Christians with no leadership? Or, not Mormon leadership? Obviously, there has always been popes, priests, and bishops so you must be saying those who held those positions were apostate. Because that is a very big and insulting claim you should back it up with proof.

I can cite all kinds of scriptures that are evidence of the falling away, but I understand that you do not read them in the same way or draw the same conclusion.

Acts 20
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Galatians 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

These are but 2, where Paul is speaking to different churches or congregations…the one in Acts is describing what will happen after he has gone. Not only will outside influences (grievous wolves) enter in among them but internal strife too, will cause a falling away.

In Galatians, they have already fallen away as they are “so soon removed …to another gospel”, which is not another but really an apostacized version.

This is already going on while the Apostles are still around.
Let me ask you this…what is it in the history of the House of Israel, and even from before, from the time of Adam, that would lead you to believe there would not be an apostacy?

But why would people living in a state of apostasy die for their faith?

Why would they know they were in a state of apostacy? They were doing the bests they could with what they understood.

No, the problem is that the Mormons claim that God has a body so the Jews could not believe the message and the Mormons believe in polygamy which the Christians could not accept, so…the message is for Mormons only. I hear it, I have heard it, and there is no way that God sent a prophet involved in criminal behavior to preach a new message that was in opposition to both the Old and New Testament. People hear the message and reject it because they know better.

And from the standpoint of the Pharisees and Saducees, and lawyers, Jesus Christ was involved in criminal behavior and is proven by His being put to death for it.
Yes, indeed, those that put Jesus to death heard His message and knew better…
Just because the truth is not recognized by those in power, does not mean those in power are right.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus Christ was involved in criminal behavior and is proven by His being put to death for it.

This is incorrect. Jesus Christ was declared innocent by Pontius Pilot: “I find no fault in him.”

So please stop trying to compare Jesus to Joe. It just doesn’t fly. Thanks.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Lord gave us all we need 2,000 years ago. He cannot force us to comply or be good and faithful. He has given us all the helps necessary to remain faithful. So you can’t blame the Church itself, but those individuals who have failed it and have been a cause of century-old scandal.

But to hold on to scandal is not really being totally focused on God and his graces either, or keeping one’s focus on the community of believers who are faithful.

 

[flyonthewall]

This is incorrect. Jesus Christ was declared innocent by Pontius Pilot: “I find no fault in him.”

So please stop trying to compare Jesus to Joe. It just doesn’t fly. Thanks.

Jesus had trumped up charges against him by the Jewis leadership, and Pilate found no fault in Him. Yet Jesus was still executed by the will of the Jewish people.
Joseph Smith had charges trumped up against him on more than one occasion and each time was found innocent of the charges. Yet Joseph was still executed by the will of the people.

You are right…I cannot see any parallels between the two.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus had trumped up charges against him by the Jewis leadership, and Pilate found no fault in Him. Yet Jesus was still executed by the will of the Jewish people.
Joseph Smith had charges trumped up against him on more than one occasion and each time was found innocent of the charges. Yet Joseph was still executed by the will of the people.

You are right…I cannot see any parallels between the two.

flyonthewall, the only comparison that can be made is that both were killed unjustly.

Smith was in prison for violation of civil laws (inciting a riot), he also had broken the laws regarding bigamy. These are not trumped, they were real. If he had not been murdered he would have gone to trial, and maybe all this Mormon nonsense would have ended right there. As it was, that is not what happened.

Jesus was turned over by the Jews, to be executed by the Romans, for claiming to be the Messiah, and while Smith had some pretty large claims, which grew over time, he didn’t live long enough to get to the point where he claimed to be God. Though, he was getting close to that point (see the King Follet Sermon).

Jesus was not a fraud.

Joseph Smith was.

Maybe someday you’ll understand the difference.

 

[lax16]

You acknowledge there were heresies during that time. The scriptures speak of it too. There were some very devout and brave members trying to hang on to what they believed as they understood it.

You are trying to find reasons to believe in the Great Apostasy so that you can believe in Joseph Smith the prophet. Devout and brave members did hang on with the help of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ.

I can cite all kinds of scriptures that are evidence of the falling away, but I understand that you do not read them in the same way or draw the same conclusion.

I can cite all kinds of information about the lack of cohesion with the early Mormon church but you guys are still here right? A prophet involved in criminal behavior, apostles excommunicated, first visionaries booted out…hmmmmm…sounds like alot of evidence for a great mormon apostasy!

These are but 2, where Paul is speaking to different churches or congregations…the one in Acts is describing what will happen after he has gone. Not only will outside influences (grievous wolves) enter in among them but internal strife too, will cause a falling away.

In Galatians, they have already fallen away as they are “so soon removed …to another gospel”, which is not another but really an apostacized version.

This is already going on while the Apostles are still around.
Let me ask you this…what is it in the history of the House of Israel, and even from before, from the time of Adam, that would lead you to believe there would not be an apostacy?

Sorry, but Paul and all of the others who were struggling still managed to keep the Church afloat as Jesus promised. Like I said, if we are going to go back and read a church’s history and look for perfect harmony, then the mormons were out from the very beginning.

Why would they know they were in a state of apostacy? They were doing the bests they could with what they understood.

Was the Holy Spirit still with them and the Church? Yes or no.

And from the standpoint of the Pharisees and Saducees, and lawyers, Jesus Christ was involved in criminal behavior and is proven by His being put to death for it.
Yes, indeed, those that put Jesus to death heard His message and knew better…
Just because the truth is not recognized by those in power, does not mean those in power are right.

For heaven’s sake, are you comparing Jesus Christ with Joseph Smith?
Jesus was put to death as was predicted in the Old Testament and was sacrificed for our sins. It was a fulfillment of a prophecy. Would you mind explaining to me the connection.
Not everyone who heard Jesus’ message knew better. What makes you say that everyone knew better?
The Holy Spirit has been leading the Church - that is how we know that the Church is right.

 

[flyonthewall]

For heaven’s sake, are you comparing Jesus Christ with Joseph Smith?
Jesus was put to death as was predicted in the Old Testament and was sacrificed for our sins. It was a fulfillment of a prophecy. Would you mind explaining to me the connection.
Not everyone who heard Jesus’ message knew better. What makes you say that everyone knew better?
The Holy Spirit has been leading the Church - that is how we know that the Church is right.

And I could say that you are trying to find reasons to believe the Apostacy did not happen…this is a difference in our beliefs and I’m good to leave it there.
I understand that if it did happen then your belief system has been in error, and if it did not happen, then mine is in error.
It is good that we will be judged by what we do with what we understand

 

[ParkerD]

Since I have been recently participating on this thread and noticed the recent “digression”, I might as well note since the topic is generally “a prophet called of God”, that a prophet or a testifier of gospel truth is often scorned by the general population, even to the point of being killed as were Jeremiah, Stephen, and Peter, or banished to a prison place as was John.

Human nature is such that people do not like to be told there is another way of looking at things than their way, particularly as regards religion and politics. Some become so overworked that they use far-fetched logic and justify themselves through that logic–(others do worse).

All this is no doubt part of the human, mortal process of trying to learn to get along with each other while “seeing through a glass, darkly” and certainly not seeing as God sees. We should expect it, particularly when people’s deeply held beliefs are challenged.

Fortunately, there will come a day when all the misunderstandings and misjudgments will be able to be brought to light within the light of the Savior’s perfect knowledge and perfect love. That will be a great day.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

I read some where that the divisions in the Church are because of the sins of Catholics. But non-Catholics need to forgive.

Christ wants us to be one.

Mormons talk more like Catholics today.

 

[lax16]

Since I have been recently participating on this thread and noticed the recent “digression”, I might as well note since the topic is generally “a prophet called of God”, that a prophet or a testifier of gospel truth is often scorned by the general population, even to the point of being killed as were Jeremiah, Stephen, and Peter, or banished to a prison place as was John.

Are you comparing Joseph Smith to these people of the bible? Were any one of them convicted of crimes or did they boast about themselves? Please, even on fairlds they have a whole section dedicated to the criminal activity of JS. Please stop trying to convince us that if we see things differently we are somehow unaware of how to recognize a true prophet. Joseph Smith was not ridiculed only for his faith - he angered many people for many other reasons.
Do you think the people during JS time read the bible? Do you think they knew the criteria spelled out in the bible regarding false prophets?

Human nature is such that people do not like to be told there is another way of looking at things than their way, particularly as regards religion and politics. Some become so overworked that they use far-fetched logic and justify themselves through that logic–(others do worse).

But that is why we are here, is it not? I haven’t read anyone who is far-fetched. If you are referring to me, please be specific.

All this is no doubt part of the human, mortal process of trying to learn to get along with each other while “seeing through a glass, darkly” and certainly not seeing as God sees. We should expect it, particularly when people’s deeply held beliefs are challenged.

I look through the glasses that Jesus Christ gave His Church 2,000 ago and I read the history of the Early Church Fathers. I read the struggle of the early Church as told to us in the Holy Bible that was compiled by Catholic Church leaders. I read the lives of the saints who have been slaughtered for their faith and who would not have possibly done that if the Holy Spirit had left them.
Our beliefs should be challenged, Parker. And we should be able to answer it. And Catholics have a very long history that was hard fought and I will be _____ to let anyone toss it aside.

Fortunately, there will come a day when all the misunderstandings and misjudgments will be able to be brought to light within the light of the Savior’s perfect knowledge and perfect love. That will be a great day.

Fortunately, Jesus already spelled it all out for us when He taught His apostles and left the Holy Spirit to finish the job with His One Holy and Catholic Church.

 

[lax16]

It seems like the classic battle between childhood and adulthood. Without struggle, what motivation would there be to grow up? Deep down, most people prefer to remain in a happy, peaceful, childlike existence, without conflict. Does this mean that you believe that any new fabricated religion that emphasizes nothing but positivity is acceptable? Without the uncomfortable effort of discerning Truth, sooner or later, won’t most people ultimately choose which denomination makes them feel best, like pandering to a child? Will we ultimately fail without acknowledging that strict rules for uncomfortable adult behavior and responsiblity should exist? Are you saying that the “be happy and treat others well” religion is the best? Is that realistic? Adults should be able to agree to disagree. Most of the bickering seems to come from discerning truth versus outcomes-based feelings.

Thanks be to God the saints had the courage to stand up for the Church!

 

[lax16]

And I could say that you are trying to find reasons to believe the Apostacy did not happen…this is a difference in our beliefs and I’m good to leave it there.
I understand that if it did happen then your belief system has been in error, and if it did not happen, then mine is in error.
It is good that we will be judged by what we do with what we understand

The reason that I believe the Apostacy did not happen is because Jesus promised it wouldn’t.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
The word “church” is translated from the word “ecclesia” which means “congregation of believers”. Christ’s congregation of believers was and is to be built upon the Rock of revealed knowledge that He lives and that He is their Rock and their Redeemer and Savior.

No, biblical scholars have concluded that Peter was the Rock.

The congregation of believers gain this knowledge and keep it as they keep His commandments and do not become confused by the “wisdom of men” as Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians 2 (great citation, by the way). As they do repent, gain the knowledge of Christ, and keep the commandments, the “gates of hell” will not prevail against them; also, Christ will open the “gates of hell” and rescue those suffering torment for their sins as they pray fervently for His mercy and atoning grace to rescue them from their torment. Thus, He will have an ultimate double triumph in prevailing against the “gates of hell”.

Yes, the congregation of believers have moved forward since Jesus died and left the Holy Spirit to guide them, as promised.

1. The LDS temple work is for being unselfish about our use of time, to the extent of helping ancestors have the opportunity to have the actions that needed to be done on earth in their name and for them, done in their behalf so that those actions (ordinances done on earth) can be recorded in heaven if they choose to have them be efficacious. The ordinances such as baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost were taught well in the New Testament as necessary ordinances, as was the idea of being unselfish, as was the knowledge that there is a preaching of the gospel in the spirit world among the dead.

Yes, however it is not biblical. OT rituals did not involve those that the LDS do and Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices of the Temple by being the Ultimate Sacrifice.
Catholics pray for the dead and for the souls in purgatory - it is a bit time-consuming as our lists can get rather long - but certainly it connects us with those who have gone before us. This is very important to do.

Have a wonderful day.

You too!