What keeps an atheist from stealing?

[kieron]

wolpertinger:

[snip]
I have never tried to verify the numbers, but I have read that theist’s are ten times more likely to be imprisoned. If these numbers are correct, they put an entirely different complexion on this line of questioning.

[snip]

Maybe they are imprisoned for their beliefs? I don’t think anyone is being jailed because they are an atheist, but the converse is true (outside the U.S.).

Also, since something like 96% of Americans profess to believe in God, it wouldn’t be too surpising that there are ten times more theists in jail then atheists.

Finally, (as I’ve heard it said), only sinners need a savior.

Kieron

 

[uncleauberon]

Hi all,

dredgtone:

What keeps a Christian from stealing?
…
As far as where our set of morals come from, they come from everyone else’s. Morals are like etiquette, you pick it up as you live life and see what everybody else is doing. From that you can pick or choose how you want to apply them to your life, as opposed to the ten commandments where they are simply handed to you.
…
That’s why i like my atheistic morals, I personalized them and created them, as opposed to having them handed to me. But either way it’s easy to be moraled if you love to love.

This personally created morality is what I find confusing.
Of course we all do this to some extent, but to what baseline do atheist compare themselves ?

(Paraphrasing G.K. Chesterton)

I don’t want a personal religion that just tells me when I’m right. I want a religion that tells me when I’ve been wrong.

Often, Free Thinkers and atheists tell the religious that they are trapped by their own culture and upbringing.
It seems to me that many of them are in the same trap.
If they only claim to hold the morals and ethics of their culture.

When one just keeps the morals they like and discard those they don’t, the only time they feel humility or wrong is when they fail to meet their own standards. (The trick is that most of us do find it difficult to even stick to our own standards.)

I know someone that openly claims that he doesn’t keep static morals so he never has to feel he’s been wrong.

None of us can claim ultimate wisdom. Any moral code we invent as an individual may be wrong.

Any individual atheist chooses not to steal for his/her own reasons at that time. — As does a Christian.

My question is:
How does an atheist claim his/her action as objectively “Right” or “Wrong” when he has no standard but himself ?

How can he actually claim this to be a “Moral Decision” rather than merely an expedient one? “Because it felt right at the time.”

have a great afternoon

 

[uncleauberon]

Hi,

Monarchy:

The Golden rule. I treat people the way I wish to be treated.

The question really is – do you ?

I know I don’t always do this.
But, I know I should.
I’m a sinner.

Uncle Auberon

 

[SCTA-1]

squirt:

Hi SCTA-1

Why would material possessions make an atheist happier than love, respect, the enjoyment of natural beauty, etc.? There’s more to life than having a better car, bigger house … even if those good things only last for a little while.

squirt (a former atheist who liked life even when she was poor and thought life was finite)

Hello Squirt, I guess without a God love and respect would be open to interpretation.Natural beauty? I would wonder how such beauty came about from chaos but being accidents I would have to concentrate on how to be comfortable because I could go out of existence at any time.Why live a poor life and struggle when in the end your dead and it didn’t matter anyway.Now if you follow the commandments and the teachings of Christ,struggling and being poor is your benefit because we have the perfect example in Christ and his promise of reward for being faithful.If I were an atheist,who would I be faithful to? Nothing matters.

 

[Auberon_Quin]

SCTA-1:

Hello Squirt, I guess without a God love and respect would be open to interpretation.Natural beauty? I would wonder how such beauty came about from chaos but being accidents I would have to concentrate on how to be comfortable because I could go out of existence at any time.Why live a poor life and struggle when in the end your dead and it didn’t matter anyway.

…

If I were an atheist,who would I be faithful to? Nothing matters.

Well, judging from some of the Catholic posters on this board, “love” and “respect” are concepts that are open to a variety of interpretations, even among co-religionists.

How your actions affect others here, on this earth, matters, whether you believe in an afterlife or not. Lack of belief in a personal god does not preclude belief in the value of other people and principles such as compassion, love, justice, and common courtesy.

 

[Monarchy]

uncleauberon:

Hi,

The question really is – do you ?

I know I don’t always do this.
But, I know I should.
I’m a sinner.

Uncle Auberon

I try to. I am not always sucessful as no one is perfect.

 

[SCTA-1]

Auberon Quin:

Well, judging from some of the Catholic posters on this board, “love” and “respect” are concepts that are open to a variety of interpretations, even among co-religionists.

How your actions affect others here, on this earth, matters, whether you believe in an afterlife or not. Lack of belief in a personal god does not preclude belief in the value of other people and principles such as compassion, love, justice, and common courtesy.

Compassion,love, and justice are done because God commands us to do so because we are all created in his image and likeness.If we are all accidents without a cause and reflecting nothing,who cares? We would be equivelent to ants and who cares if an ant is stepped on.Just another accident gone.

 

[Gryphon]

wildlifer:

By the way, what keeps a theist from caring about pillaging the planet’s resources when they believe they only spend ~70 years here and an eternity in heaven?

Answer: Nothing as they believe they have God-given dominion.

Not quite.

The real answer: The responsibility to be good stewards of the gifts which God has given us.

 

[wolpertinger]

uncleauberon:

This personally created morality is what I find confusing.
Of course we all do this to some extent, but to what baseline do atheist compare themselves ?

While it’s not a direct answer, here’s a quote from a science fiction novel that tends to stick with me:

“The only absolute truth is change, and death is the only way to stop change. Life is a series of judgements on changing situations, and no ideal, no belief fits every solution. Yet humans need to believe in something beyond themselves. Perhaps all intelligences do. If we do no act on higher motivations, then we can justify any action, no matter how horrible, as necessary for our survival. We are endlessly caught between the need for high moral absolutes - which will fail enough that any absolute can be demonstrated as false - and our tendency for individual judgements to degenerate into self-gratifying and unethical narcissm. Trying to force absolutes on others results in death and destruction, yet failing to act beyond one’s self also leads to death and destruction, generally a lot sooner.”
The Parafaith War, by L.E. Modesitt, Jr

I would say that anybody with a claim to ethical behaviour will try to do the right thing in given circumstances, it’s the frame of reference that differs. What worries me about moral absolutes is that is difficult, if not impossible, to admit to being wrong.

 

[SCTA-1]

wolpertinger:

Good grief.

Atheism is compatible with a non-theistic afterlife, but that’s not a commonly held view. Lacking belief in any form of divine justice is an undeniable “advantage” of the atheistic worldview, but to conclude that such disbelief divorces atheists from any kind of ethical and moral obligations is a bit of a stretch – to put it mildly.

Please let me ask you this: Can you conceive of anything you would not do, given assurance from whatever religious authority you accept that it would not be counted against you in the afterlife?

More: Can you conceive of anything you would not do, even though whatever religious authority you accept informs you that to refuse would mean a ticket to hell?

These are not trick questions and you are under no obligation to answer them, of course.

By reading your posts you are a very articulate and polite individual.Now my small brain has to absorb these questions.I guess the first one would be killing.I would not kill anyone but if I fought in a justified war the killing would not be held against me in the afterlife because it would have been my duty to liberate the oppressed and my religious authority would say it would not be killing in the sense like murder but self defense.How did I do? Smoke is coming out of my ears!!

 

[buffalo]

Booger:

Because if you didn’t care, you would have a lot less than 70 years and that would really suck!

Might not if I get into eternity faster.

 

[wolpertinger]

SCTA-1:

Compassion,love, and justice are done because God commands us to do so because we are all created in his image and likeness.If we are all accidents without a cause and reflecting nothing,who cares? We would be equivelent to ants and who cares if an ant is stepped on.Just another accident gone.

It’s not that I want to pick on you personally, but are you saying that love, compassion, and justice are nothing but a command performance for a Christian? I wonder, can you comprehend that there are people that practice all of these on their own free will and for no other reason that it’s the right thing to do?

On edit: I worded this in a more antagonistic manner than I intended. Rather than editing the post, I’d like to apologize in advance for my turn of phrase.

On second edit: Open mouth, insert foot. I did not intend to be antagonistic at all, period.

 

[wolpertinger]

SCTA-1:

By reading your posts you are a very articulate and polite individual.Now my small brain has to absorb these questions.I guess the first one would be killing.I would not kill anyone but if I fought in a justified war the killing would not be held against me in the afterlife because it would have been my duty to liberate the oppressed and my religious authority would say it would not be killing in the sense like murder but self defense.How did I do? Smoke is coming out of my ears!!

Thank you.

As I said, these are not trick questions and this is not a test. In any case, I would be singularly misqualified to grade you.

What I’m trying to get at is that there are things that many people will not do, even if their actions would not invite punishment. There are other things we can be compelled to do, even against better judgement. There is no qualitive difference between atheists and theists that I can see.

 

[Auberon_Quin]

SCTA-1:

Compassion,love, and justice are done because God commands us to do so because we are all created in his image and likeness.If we are all accidents without a cause and reflecting nothing,who cares? We would be equivelent to ants and who cares if an ant is stepped on.Just another accident gone.

I bet the ants care.

 

[SCTA-1]

wolpertinger:

It’s not that I want to pick on you personally, but are you saying that love, compassion, and justice are nothing but a command performance for a Christian? I wonder, can you comprehend that there are people that practice all of these on their own free will and for no other reason that it’s the right thing to do?

On edit: I worded this in a more antagonistic manner than I intended. Rather than editing the post, I’d like to apologize in advance for my turn of phrase.

On second edit: Open mouth, insert foot. I did not intend to be antagonistic at all, period.

No problem at all. Great dialogue.Now without God what is the right thing to do? How do we know it’s right? Now I have a question, If a printing press factory blew up what are the chances that you would find a complete unabridged encyclopedia britannica formed from the explosion?

 

[squirt]

SCTA-1:

Hello Squirt, I guess without a God love and respect would be open to interpretation.Natural beauty? I would wonder how such beauty came about from chaos but being accidents I would have to concentrate on how to be comfortable because I could go out of existence at any time.Why live a poor life and struggle when in the end your dead and it didn’t matter anyway.Now if you follow the commandments and the teachings of Christ,struggling and being poor is your benefit because we have the perfect example in Christ and his promise of reward for being faithful.If I were an atheist,who would I be faithful to? Nothing matters.

If you were an atheist, you might look at things differently.

Edit addition: Being a theist is far from what I ‘imagined’ it to be as an outsider. Experiencing something and imaging what an experience would be like can be two vastly different things.

 

[SCTA-1]

Auberon Quin:

I bet the ants care.

Ah ha! An ant rights activist! LOL.

 

[uncleauberon]

Hi,

wolpertinger:

I would say that anybody with a claim to ethical behaviour will try to do the right thing in given circumstances, it’s the frame of reference that differs. What worries me about moral absolutes is that is difficult, if not impossible, to admit to being wrong.

What worries me is the opposite.
Without a moral absolute it would be difficult or impossible to admit to being wrong.

Were I the only measure for my morality I could, and would, rationaltize everything I did or just blame it on culture or genetics.
It’s not my fault.

Uncle Auberon

 

[Auberon_Quin]

SCTA-1:

Ah ha! An ant rights activist! LOL.

I blame Johnny Hart, the BC guy.

I do not believe in a personal God, but that doesn’t keep me from caring about my fellow ants and helping to make their time on this planet happy, peaceful, and productive. If this life is all any of us has, it seems a shame to waste it causing unnecessary pain to others, doesn’t it?

 

[wolpertinger]

SCTA-1:

No problem at all. Great dialogue.Now without God what is the right thing to do? How do we know it’s right? Now I have a question, If a printing press factory blew up what are the chances that you would find a complete unabridged encyclopedia britannica formed from the explosion?

Oh, good.

What’s the right thing to do and how do we know it? Better men (and women) than I am have spent a lifetime looking for an answer. In real life, some situations are clear-cut, but often things are anything but. Even with absolute morals, we can be faced with agonizingly tough calls between mutually exclusive courses of actions that each result in distinctive good and bad. The long and short of it is, in general I simply don’t know.

Regarding the factory blowup, if we agree on some simplifying assumptions we could have a stab at the math. However, the chance will be greater than zero, but incomprehensibly small.