What kind of money are we talking about when it comes to non-denominational church lighting, and band equipment?

[robwar]

I do well on defending the church and her precious jewels/gold in the mass. We know God is not opposed to gold. We know that these things only have value because secular people place monetary value on it. This conversation came up with a friend who helps set the “stage” for “worship” service in his non-denominational church. I would like to know from someone more experience in these type of things what as church can typically expect to pay for exotic light show church services and drumsets? Personally I cannot see it being any less expensive than gold candle holders, and chalices.

I think you are making some poor assumptions here. You do not need to defend the Church because in some Catholic churches, not all there are or have been gold decorations. All you would have to say is that they were made as a sign of devotion and the the OT temple used gold and silver and fine craftsmanship. You make an error is equating this with a more contemporary worship found in many non-denominational Churches. I went to 2 small ones before becoming Catholic and both met in school gyms and there was no exotic setup or light show or entertainment. Worship was led by volunteers, not paid musicians. I think only the bigger mega style churches are going to have the resources to have bigger sets and stages etc. I think it would be better if we stop judging and assuming about the worship services of other Christians and what is in their heart and calling it as entertainment. These types of criticism only come back to haunt Catholics because a non Catholic can claim that Catholics are bored or asleep at Mass. Only a few Catholic Churches are going to have expensive gold a jeweled candle sticks in todays world. This would be due to stealing of these types of items.

 

[ltwin]

Oh, when it comes to the main purpose of the post:

It can be costly, if taken to extremes. My smallish/average sized (150 attendance on average) non-denominational Pentecostal (we’re independent of any outside Pentecostal bishop, council, conference, district, fellowship, etc., but Pentecostal in doctrine) has always been into having an nice sound system, but we always seem to be spending more and more money on bigger and better. About 3 or 4 years ago, we installed the light show, which has become a regular feature of our worship “aesthetic.”

In my opinion, especially if you’re an average sized church, there are better ways to spend money than constantly updating the church sound system. The rule should be what are the church’s needs and how can we meet that need in the most cost effective ways.

At the same time, all our musicians and singers devote their time and talent absolutely for free. So, we don’t have the expense of paying for a professional music program.

I don’t mind the church having a “concert-like” atmosphere as long as it is drawing people to hear the gospel preached, which should always be the center of everything we do.

 

[4Squarebaby]

ltwin:

Oh, when it comes to the main purpose of the post:

It can be costly, if taken to extremes. My smallish/average sized (150 attendance on average) non-denominational Pentecostal (we’re independent of any outside Pentecostal bishop, council, conference, district, fellowship, etc., but Pentecostal in doctrine) has always been into having an nice sound system, but we always seem to be spending more and more money on bigger and better. About 3 or 4 years ago, we installed the light show, which has become a regular feature of our worship “aesthetic.”

In my opinion, especially if you’re an average sized church, there are better ways to spend money than constantly updating the church sound system. The rule should be what are the church’s needs and how can we meet that need in the most cost effective ways.

At the same time, all our musicians and singers devote their time and talent absolutely for free. So, we don’t have the expense of paying for a professional music program.

I don’t mind the church having a “concert-like” atmosphere as long as it is drawing people to hear the gospel preached, which should always be the center of everything we do.

In the long run you can ask about how costly an upgrade will be. The explosion of technology for lights, computers and even PAs mean newer stuff cost less to use then the old gear. My first church was recovering from the star pastor leaving and no longer being a mega. Just turning on the lights was a burden helped by a remodel and using different types of bulbs

Basically cost comes down to the size of your building, the bigger the building, especially if not designed with sound in mind the more PA system you have to buy. A lot of cost will be sunk. The drummers traps because logistically they take time to move. A grand piano and if your church is old enough you probably have a Hammond organ.

Most musicians other the piano, organ and the drummer will bring their own gear. If the PA is good enough they can bring the overall volume down. If you have wireless gear you can tear down faster, important if you are renting space or perhaps another church is using your space.

As for the pros, for some it is just another gig. For others it is part of the process of determing which church to attend.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Odell]

Originally Posted by Odell View Post

Perhaps I should have just said its not worship in the biblical sense. Somehow I dont think that would have gone over as well either. Never meant to offend anyone.

How can you possibly know they’re not rendering worship to God? You can’t see their souls, minds and hearts.

Perhaps I should have said worship in a historical sense??

If the Apostle Paul was to walk into a mega church with its praise bands and elaborate worship routine, he would likely think he was at some Greek play and seriously doubt he was at a Christian worship service.

 

[dronald]

Originally Posted by Odell View Post

Perhaps I should have just said its not worship in the biblical sense. Somehow I dont think that would have gone over as well either. Never meant to offend anyone.

Perhaps I should have said worship in a historical sense??

If the Apostle Paul was to walk into a mega church with its praise bands and elaborate worship routine, he would likely think he was at some Greek play and seriously doubt he was at a Christian worship service.

He would probably think some serious sorcery was going on at first glance, haha.

Aside from that, we can’t be certain what Paul would think. There’s a chance he would be fine with it and a chance he wouldn’t, I would say the same about Some Catholic practices.

 

[manualman]

I had to laugh at the last bit. Odell, I agree with lantheria, there’s no need for the quotation marks around “worship”. That’s somewhere between really silly and pretty offensive.

In fairness, there really is a difference in how catholics define the word worship and the way the word seems to be defined in non-denom congregations. Catholics fundamentally understand the word to be about the offering of sacrifice to God, expressed in its highest form in the presentation of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross supernaturally made present at mass.

Non-denom communities often define worship with no effective difference from the word “praise” (except perhaps in the tempo of the song being sung). That’s not scare quotes, it’s a legitimate difference in definition of a word. And when you get right down to it, an awful lot of the conflicts in human history have a lot to do with people using the same word to mean different things and failing to comprehend each other!

 

[ltwin]

Non-denom communities often define worship with no effective difference from the word “praise” (except perhaps in the tempo of the song being sung). That’s not scare quotes, it’s a legitimate difference in definition of a word.

Actually praise and worship are considered two different things. We give God praise for what he has done. We give God worship because of who He is.

Praise can be a part of worship, but worship is a fundamentally deeper concept and lived experience.

Given the nature of praise (which is thanking God for all the good things he’s done) any song that is a song of praise naturally will tend to be upbeat. Worship, however, is a lifestyle not just a slow song.

Source: Lifetime spent in an evangelical/non-denominational context.

 

[AbideWithMe]

In fairness, there really is a difference in how catholics define the word worship and the way the word seems to be defined in non-denom congregations. Catholics fundamentally understand the word to be about the offering of sacrifice to God, expressed in its highest form in the presentation of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross supernaturally made present at mass.

Non-denom communities often define worship with no effective difference from the word “praise” (except perhaps in the tempo of the song being sung). That’s not scare quotes, it’s a legitimate difference in definition of a word. And when you get right down to it, an awful lot of the conflicts in human history have a lot to do with people using the same word to mean different things and failing to comprehend each other!

I’m laughing in agreement at that last bit.

Worship does involves sacrifice, though, not just praise, even in non-denominational churches, and even if it can’t be recognized by everyone as such. Though I don’t support or even like mega churches, I have every reason to believe that many of the people in the congregation are offering themselves, arms open wide in vulnerability and lifted in supplication, as living sacrifices. I’ve been in old local Lutheran churches with the oldest extant pipe organs in America, worshipping quietly amidst the beautiful music of Pachelbel and Bach and reciting the responsive readings and prayers with my whole heart. And I’ve been in modern churches with rock music, which I also find beautiful, mysterious and awe-inspiring (in a Trans-Siberian Orchestra kind of way), arms open wide, likewise offering worship. I don’t need things “just right” before I will worship God.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Originally Posted by Odell View Post

Perhaps I should have just said its not worship in the biblical sense. Somehow I dont think that would have gone over as well either. Never meant to offend anyone.

Perhaps I should have said worship in a historical sense??

If the Apostle Paul was to walk into a mega church with its praise bands and elaborate worship routine, he would likely think he was at some Greek play and seriously doubt he was at a Christian worship service.

Well, if we’re looking at historical examples, when David danced before the Lord with all his might, embarrassing Michel, wasn’t that also worship?

 

[AbideWithMe]

He would probably think some serious sorcery was going on at first glance, haha.

Aside from that, we can’t be certain what Paul would think. There’s a chance he would be fine with it and a chance he wouldn’t, I would say the same about Some Catholic practices.

I agree. We don’t really know what Paul would think if he lived in our day.