What language is used in the Divine Liturgy?

[pickguard1]

Is it the local (vernacular) language? or the particulal language of the sui juris or Orthodox church? If it’s not in the vernacular, does one need to learn the particular language to translate rites?

Also, are there any differences in the texts between Catholic and Orthodox Divine Liturgies (i.e. mentioning of the Pope, or the Immacualte Conception) I ask this, because I read through a text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom here. (please let me know if this is accurate). In one part it mentions that Christ is alone without sin - I was wondering how this meshes with the Immaculate Conception and Orthodoxy/Eastern Catholicism and the acceptance/non-accpetance of that dogma.

 

[Volodymyr]

Is it the local (vernacular) language? or the particulal language of the sui juris or Orthodox church? If it’s not in the vernacular, does one need to learn the particular language to translate rites?

Also, are there any differences in the texts between Catholic and Orthodox Divine Liturgies (i.e. mentioning of the Pope, or the Immacualte Conception) I ask this, because I read through a text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom here. (please let me know if this is accurate). In one part it mentions that Christ is alone without sin - I was wondering how this meshes with the Immaculate Conception and Orthodoxy/Eastern Catholicism and the acceptance/non-accpetance of that dogma.

PRAYER FOR THOSE SLEEPING IN DEATH DURING LITURGY:

(in modern Kirillitsa, Church Slavonic)

Ибо нет человека, который жил бы и не согрешил, ибо только Ты один без греха, правда Твоя - правда навек и слово Твое - истина.
Ибо Ты - воскресение и жизнь и покой усопших рабов Твоих **(имена) **, Христе Боже наш, и Тебе славу воссылаем, со безначальным Твоим Отцом, и всесвятым и благим и животворящим Твоим Духом ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков.

For there is not a person who would have lived and who has not sinned, for only You alone are without sin. Your truth is truth for ever and your word is truth. For you are resurrection and life and rest of those sleeping servants of yours (names), Christ our God, and to You we give Glory with your Unbeginning Father and All Saintly and Blessed Lifegiving your Spirit, now and for age of ages.

I do not know if GrekoCatolics have changed this prayer after 1871. But we do consider Maria Mother of god - All Holy and without Stain. Even in same liturgy , it is sayingthat Mary is without defect as below:

PRAYER OF WORTHY MOTHER OF GOD in moder Kirillitsa Church Slavonic

Достойно есть воистину / прославлять Тебя, Богородицу, / вечно блаженную и пренепорочную / и Матерь Бога нашего.

It is worthy in truth to Glorify You, Mother of God, always blessed and most-stainless and Mother of Our God.

So for us Christ is sinless and All Holy Virgin is Most-stainless.

 

[pickguard1]

PRAYER FOR THOSE SLEEPING IN DEATH DURING LITURGY:

(in modern Kirillitsa, Church Slavonic)

Ибо нет человека, который жил бы и не согрешил, ибо только Ты один без греха, правда Твоя - правда навек и слово Твое - истина.
Ибо Ты - воскресение и жизнь и покой усопших рабов Твоих **(имена) **, Христе Боже наш, и Тебе славу воссылаем, со безначальным Твоим Отцом, и всесвятым и благим и животворящим Твоим Духом ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков.

For there is not a person who would have lived and who has not sinned, for only You alone are without sin. Your truth is truth for ever and your word is truth. For you are resurrection and life and rest of those sleeping servants of yours (names), Christ our God, and to You we give Glor with your Unbeginning Father and All Saintly and Blessed Lifegiving your Spirit, now and for age of ages.

I do not know if GrekoCatolics have changed this prayer after 1871. But it is true that Mary is without defect as below:

Достойно есть воистину / прославлять Тебя, Богородицу, / вечно блаженную и пренепорочную / и Матерь Бога нашего.

It is worthy in truth to Glorify You, Mother of God, always blessed and most-stainless and Mother of Our God.

So for us Christ is sinless and All Holy Virgin is Most-stainless.

Yes, this is how the translation from the link I posted has it:

Litany for the Deceased

"O God of spirits, and of all flesh, Who hast trampled down death by death, and overthrown the Devil, and hast bestowed life upon Thy world: do Thou Thyself, O Lord, grant rest to the soul(s) of Thy departed servant(s), (name-s of the deceased), in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing have fled away. As the gracious God, Who lovest mankind, pardon every transgression which he (or she or they) has (or have) committed, whether by word, or deed, or thought. For Thou alone art without sin, and Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy word is truth. For Thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of Thy departed servant(s) (name-s of the deceased). O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe glory, together with Thy Father, Who is from everlasting, and Thine All-Holy, and Good and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. "

But are sinless and stainless considered the same thing? I know all this probably leads back to the Eastern understanding of Original Sin, which I haven’t been able to locate on these threads very easily to get a clear understanding of it.

 

[Aramis]

Is it the local (vernacular) language? or the particulal language of the sui juris or Orthodox church? If it’s not in the vernacular, does one need to learn the particular language to translate rites?

Also, are there any differences in the texts between Catholic and Orthodox Divine Liturgies (i.e. mentioning of the Pope, or the Immacualte Conception)

Difference in translations, and adding the commemoration of the pope prior to the archbishop.

Minor rubrical differences.

I’ve been to RO DL’s in english, slavonic, and mixed. I’ve been to Ruthenian DL’s in English, Slavonic, and mixed. I’ve been to CO liturgies in Arabic mixed with english.

It varies by particular church exactly which languages have approved traditions

 

[pickguard1]

So would I expect to hear English if I went to a Divine Liturgy in the U.S.? or does that vary extensively?

 

[mlouise007]

In one part it mentions that Christ is alone without sin - I was wondering how this meshes with the Immaculate Conception and Orthodoxy/Eastern Catholicism and the acceptance/non-accpetance of that dogma.

You might want to look at the thread Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Although there are some side trips on the thread there is also a fair amount of discussion on the Immaculate Conception.

I also would encourage you to listen to the short interviews Eastern Catholic Theology PART 1 and Part 2 with Fr. Abbot Nicholas of Holy Resurrection Monastery. He responds to a question posed about the Eastern Churches and dogmas of the Rome. Part 2 around min 5 he talks about the Immaculate Conception. Parts 1&2 are only 20 mins total so it’s not an in depth discussion but I still think is, for me as a Latin Church Catholic, extremely helpful.

 

[pickguard1]

You might want to look at the thread Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Although there are some side trips on the thread there is also a fair amount of discussion on the Immaculate Conception.

I also would encourage you to listen to the short interviews Eastern Catholic Theology PART 1 and Part 2 with Fr. Abbot Nicholas of Holy Resurrection Monastery. He responds to a question posed about the Eastern Churches and dogmas of the Rome. Part 2 around min 5 he talks about the Immaculate Conception. Parts 1&2 are only 20 mins total so it’s not an in depth discussion but I still think is, for me as a Latin Church Catholic, extremely helpful.

thanks for the links - I’ll check them out!

 

[malphono]

So would I expect to hear English if I went to a Divine Liturgy in the U.S.? or does that vary extensively?

It can vary widely, depending on the Particular Church involved. And even then it can also vary (to a greater or lesser extent) depending on the individual congregation.

 

[mariyka]

You may even hear both English and the ethnic language in the same Divine Liturgy.

 

[mlouise007]

So would I expect to hear English if I went to a Divine Liturgy in the U.S.?

Maybe.

or does that vary extensively?

Yes.

To just add examples to what malphono said: This Sunday we had more Church Slavonic than usual, tho still mostly English at my Byzantine parish. Last Sunday I was at the local Greek Orthodox church, for a special DL with the Metropolitan, and only the Gospel and Homily were repeated in English. Every DL I been participate in there was in Greek, tho I have never been there for an “ordinary” Sunday, only special events, funerals and some feast days. I imagine they have a DL that is largely in English. The Sunday before that I visited an Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church where only the Gospel was proclaimed, a second time, in English. The Russian Orthodox church I go to occasionally for feast days also sometimes is nearly totally in English, but at other times has a fair amount of Church Slavonic (same priest for both).

I asked our priest why there was more Slavonic yesterday, still trying to figure out the immense puzzle of the East. He said it was out of respect for the parish founders/heritage, which was founded by “white” Russians. Since our deacon wasn’t there the priest said he just decided to do the extra Slavonic- so it had nothing to do with which feast day it was etc. which is where my mind had gone. Whenever the reader who reads Russian is present which is most Sundays, we do have a Scripture reading first in English and then in Russian, .

 

[bpbasilphx]

The only time the Conception of the Theotokos would be mentioned in the Divine Liturgy would be on the day itself, which is traditionally 9 December.

I’m sure you can find the relevant texts on line.

 

[Aramis]

So would I expect to hear English if I went to a Divine Liturgy in the U.S.? or does that vary extensively?

The odds are good you’ll hear at least some English at most parishes.

Aside from the Ruthenians, the liturgy is likely to be at least partially in one of the “ethnic” languages, tho’ for the Ukrainian, Ruthenian, and Russian parishes, it may be Church Slavonic rather than the actual ethnic language.

Even in Orthodox parishes, mixed is common. (Except for Old Believers… Russian Church Slavonic… only…)

 

[bpbasilphx]

Even in Orthodox parishes, mixed is common. (Except for Old Believers… Russian Church Slavonic… only…)

---

**Holy Nativity Old Rite Cathedral in Erie, PA uses a lot of English. Stichera appointed to be chanted to the podobny (special melodies) are left in Slavonic, as they feel the chant is an intrinsic part of the services, but everything else is in English.

In fact, when they translated the pre-Nikonian services into English, almost all of the differences disappeared. This is what led them to be reconciled with the fullness Orthodoxy.

Of course, Old Believers in Alaska and elsewhere are a different issue.**

 

[pickguard1]

Is Church Slavonic a sort of equivalent to Ecclesiastical Latin? Is it an older form of Russian or a completely different subset of the Slavic languages?

 

[Aramis]

Is Church Slavonic a sort of equivalent to Ecclesiastical Latin? Is it an older form of Russian or a completely different subset of the Slavic languages?

It was a constructed language derived from the various slavic tongues. Originally written in the glagolithic alphabet, it was later also written in the cyrillic alphabet.

Two major branches seem to exist, springing from Old Church Slavonic we get Church Slavonic and Russian Church Slavonic, which are all pretty darned close to each other.

Slavonic is mutually intelligible with many slavic tongues; as close as Latin and Italian, if not closer, in most cases.

It was used by the church, and as a trade tongue.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Is Church Slavonic a sort of equivalent to Ecclesiastical Latin? Is it an older form of Russian or a completely different subset of the Slavic languages?

Church Slavonic is an artificial ecclesiastical language based on the Bulgarian Slavic dialect spoken in the streets of Thessaloniki when Ss. Cyril and Methodius were growing up in the 800-900’s. (I understand it contains only around 900 words, not counting declensions and conjugations.)

In some ways it’s similar to Ecclesiastical Latin, in that it was not really a vernacular, but strictly literary language that was not limited to any one place.

As late as the 19th century it was still used as a written langauge in those areas where the various Slavic village vernaculars had not coalesced into stable, consistent languages.

 

[mlouise007]

Is Church Slavonic a sort of equivalent to Ecclesiastical Latin? Is it an older form of Russian or a completely different subset of the Slavic languages?

I just happened to see this link on a Byz church’s web site. I appreciate his effort in making a way for us to learn a couple prayers in Church Slavonic. His comments are interesting:

Having spent my youth hearing Slavonic every Sunday, it is only now in adulthood, and some twenty years away from the Church, that I finally have come to understand the Divine Services after participating in services in English. Early in my return to the Church I found myself constantly saying “oh… this is what that means” as I regularly discovered something new in the services.

Recently at a Russian Orthodox church I go to for occasional feast days the priest jokingly said how much he appreciated the Hollywood bible story films when he was a kid because he never understood the Scripture readings growing up.

 

[pickguard1]

Thanks Aramis, bpbasilphx, and mlouise007 for the helpful responses.