What Leadership Roles Can Women Play During Mass or in the RC Church

[corsair]

I really think that when a person is posting a question such as this, they should specify which Form of the Mass they are addressing. I am assuming that in this case you are talking about the OF and not the Extraordinary Form.

 

[TrueLight]

I really think that when a person is posting a question such as this, they should specify which Form of the Mass they are addressing. I am assuming that in this case you are talking about the OF and not the Extraordinary Form.

Really? What if the person doesn’t know the difference?

I know the difference somewhat in terms of Liturgy, but I have no idea if service-wise, some things are allowed in one form and not the other.

 

[Phemie]

Really? What if the person doesn’t know the difference?

I know the difference somewhat in terms of Liturgy, but I have no idea if service-wise, some things are allowed in one form and not the other.

In the Extraordinary Form of the Mass the priest does the readings, there are no Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion and only males may be altar servers.

Women can be part of the choir. I know of nothing that prevents them from doing the collection, though I never saw women do that. Since there is no presentation of the gifts in the EF that’s another role that women have in the OF that is not in the EF.

 

[barb_finnegan]

I’ve noticed that in parish that the more women volunteer to do things, the more the men back away. Typically everything for awhile was pretty much run by women, including the parish. Sacristans, committees, EMHC, religious education. The pastor let them run it.

Things are starting to balance out more with the new pastor. Not all women are shooting for power, but if the pastor is a pushover or just doesn’t care about his parish, those ARE the types who will get the positions as I’ve seen firsthand.

That’s true. I’ve seen it myself in the last parish I was in. There was a group of women who ‘bossed’ the pastor around.

Men have to learn to stand up and BE MEN! They’re supposed to be the heads, not the women!

 

[barb_finnegan]

I know that women aren’t allowed to be Priests or Deacons in the RC Church.

I have seen women who collect the “gifts”.

Also, I have seen women in some masses on EWTN help to distribute the communion. Is that acceptable to the Catholic Church?

Can women be readers?

What other roles can women play aside from becoming nun teachers?
Thanks!

Where have you seen women distributing Communion on EWTN? Certainly not at the Daily Masses from the chapel in Irondale! Or when the occasional EF Mass is done at the Shrine in Hanceville. I’ve been to both places, and it’s always done by the clergy. The priests and the one deacon [Deacon Bill] do the distributing.

And I’ve never seen any women EHMCs at the Papal Masses from St. Peter’s. There are enough priests at those Masses who do the distributing on those occasions, too.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Not every women is meant to be meek and mild. Goodness!

But, IMHO, all Servant Leaders are.

 

[Joannm]

Where have you seen women distributing Communion on EWTN? Certainly not at the Daily Masses from the chapel in Irondale! Or when the occasional EF Mass is done at the Shrine in Hanceville. I’ve been to both places, and it’s always done by the clergy. The priests and the one deacon [Deacon Bill] do the distributing.

And I’ve never seen any women EHMCs at the Papal Masses from St. Peter’s. There are enough priests at those Masses who do the distributing on those occasions, too.

But there are women readers at Papal Masses, and they also bring up the gifts.

 

[barb_finnegan]

But there are women readers at Papal Masses, and they also bring up the gifts.

Yes, I know that-I’ve seen the female readers and offertory presenters as well.

I was talking about the distribution of Communion. That is always done by clergy alone-probably seminarians. I’ve never seen female EMHCs.

 

[puzzleannie]

We’re talking semantics here. If one is a an instructor of Youth, one is in a leadership role. If one is a choir director, one is in a leadership role. It is all done in service to the Church, but there is nothing wrong with leading.

ushering, reading, bringing up the gifts and some other things he mentioned are service roles in the liturgy.

Yes teaching is leadership, and like all such roles can be exercised only by direct commission and in union with the bishop. Leadership is always service. See John’s account of the Last Supper.

I agree with PP, if you come on this forum it is often assumed you are speaking about the EF. If you have questions about the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and that is the tone of most of the responses here, the question should be on liturgy and sacraments.

In the EF at least up until 1965, women had no roles whatever in the sanctuary, and the server or acolyte represented the congregation in the responses, which modified somewhat with the dialogue Mass which I understand the EF to be.

If you want to talk about teaching and other roles outside Mass, that is an entirely different question and probably not for this forum.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, I know that-I’ve seen the female readers and offertory presenters as well.

I was talking about the distribution of Communion. That is always done by clergy alone-probably seminarians. I’ve never seen female EMHCs.

I might have misinterpreted what I saw.

I saw women and men on the pulpit (not sure what pulpits are called in the Catholic church). It was a big stage as this was a huge mass.

Maybe they were helping get communion ready? I did see them receive communion (body and blood) from the Priest, then they descended down the stairs to the congregation. I assumed they were going to help give out communion, but I couldn’t see them with the crowd.

Does that sound like something that could happen?

 

[TrueLight]

I agree with PP, if you come on this forum it is often assumed you are speaking about the EF. If you have questions about the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and that is the tone of most of the responses here, the question should be on liturgy and sacraments.
.

Really? Thanks for letting me know. I thought “Traditional Catholicism” meant strict Catholicism. I didn’t know it referred to forms necessarily.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Not every women is meant to be meek and mild. Goodness!

That is not the traditional view.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Men have to learn to stand up and BE MEN! They’re supposed to be the heads, not the women!

This is the traditional view.

Of course since I am a man it benefits me. But if I were a woman I wouldn’t be happy with the promotion of the viewpoint that being female automatically made me subservient.

 

[barb_finnegan]

I might have misinterpreted what I saw.

I saw women and men on the pulpit (not sure what pulpits are called in the Catholic church). It was a big stage as this was a huge mass.

Maybe they were helping get communion ready? I did see them receive communion (body and blood) from the Priest, then they descended down the stairs to the congregation. I assumed they were going to help give out communion, but I couldn’t see them with the crowd.

Does that sound like something that could happen?

No, women do NOT ‘get communion ready’ at Masses in St. Peter’s in Rome! The hosts that going to be distributed at the Communion Rite are in ciboriums behind the high altar in the Basilica. At the time of the Consecration, the Communion ministers kneel behind the Holy Father with the ciboriums in their hands. Then a little later do they fan out into the congregation for the distribution.

The only time you see women is when they receive Communion from the hands of clerics (probably seminarians), or else from the Holy Father if they are privileged to do so…and those who receive from him, they receive only on the tongue, and kneeling on a kneeler provided for that purpose.

Pulpits are also called ‘ambos’, FYI.

I don’t mean to sound ‘nasty’-I understand that you’re a Protestant and have questions on we Catholics ‘do things’. I’m trying to be charitable here…

 

[TMC]

In the Extraordinary Form of the Mass the priest does the readings, there are no Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion and only males may be altar servers.

Women can be part of the choir. I know of nothing that prevents them from doing the collection, though I never saw women do that. Since there is no presentation of the gifts in the EF that’s another role that women have in the OF that is not in the EF.

What bars females from being altar servers in an EF mass?

 

[Spelling]

This ‘leadership’ thing I have a problem with…why do women always push to be ‘leaders’? It drives me nuts! The girls in schools have this stuffed into their heads all the time (they have to be leaders, they have to be leaders)!

What’s wrong with just being a humble ‘follower’? I don’t want to have any kind of ‘leadership’ position because it only creates aggravation and headaches.

When some women get into leadership positions, all they want is power. And some men cower before a woman who craves power! Men have become wimps today!

What’s wrong with having a little humility? I prefer the quiet and hidden life to being out in the trenches with the men.

Our Lady didn’t crave ‘power’ in the infant Church-why can’t women imitate her? She was the Mother of God, the ‘Handmaid of the Lord’. She certainly helped in her own quiet and hidden way in the buildup of the Church-but I’m sure that she deferred to St. Peter as the Vicar of her Son.

I think the visible liturgical ministries often attract a certain type of person. In my parish it’s not about leaders and followers, it’s often about those who want to be noticed and/or exert control.

I think one of the things that has hurt the Church the most is how the Mass (EF or OF) has not only been abused but how it has often become “fast, fast, fast, get it done, utilitarian!” My theory is this phenomena has come about to some degree because some people (namely some women) have never realized the level in the Church (ordination) they feel entitled to. Their response has been to drag things down to their level since they cannot rise to the level the feel they belong.

 

[Phemie]

What bars females from being altar servers in an EF mass?

Church law that was in force in 1962.

Even in 1980 women were barred from serving at the altar as we were reminded per Inaestimabile Donum 18.

There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27)

That (27) refers us back to 1970’s** Liturgicae Instaurationes: Instruction on the orderly carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy** which said

1. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar. According to the norms established for these matters, however, women are allowed to:
   a. proclaim the readings, except the gospel. They are to make sure that, with the help of modern sound equipment, they can be comfortably heard by all. The conferences of bishops are to give specific directions on the place best suited for women to read the word of God in the liturgical assembly.
   b. announce the intentions in the general intercessions;
   c. lead the liturgical assembly in singing and play the organ or other instruments;
   d. read the commentary assisting the people toward a better understanding of the rite;
   e. attend to other functions, customarily filled by women in other settings, as a service to the congregation, for example, ushering, organizing processions, taking up the collection.

 

[TMC]

Church law that was in force in 1962.

Even in 1980 women were barred from serving at the altar as we were reminded per Inaestimabile Donum 18.
That (27) refers us back to 1970’s** Liturgicae Instaurationes: Instruction on the orderly carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy** which said

[/INDENT]

OK, but when participating in the EF, is everyone transported back to 1962 (or 1980 or the 1970s)? Currently females altar servers are allowed, if the celebrant and the bishop approve. Why would this not apply to the EF as well as to the OF? Is there some specific rule or document that forbids it?

 

[GloriousOrder]

I hate to act like a curmudgeon, but it is written:

“Let women keep silence in the churches, for is not permitted for them to speak, but to be subject, as the law says; but, if they would learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.”

1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

If St. Paul was a sexist and misogynist, then I guess God (who spoke through him) is a sexist and misogynist. “Let all mortal flesh keep silence”, it is true, but let women keep a greater silence in Church out of respect for the vices of their gender. Men have particular vices easily manifested in us (most often choleric in nature) which must be conquered, and women have particular vices easily manifested in them (most often sanguine in nature) which must be conquered! Whereas men are more often sinful by concupiscence (food and sex drive), women are more often sinful by irascibility (emotional drive). Quarreling is proper to men as a vice, and gossip is more proper to women; both are the vice of immodesty, but they’re still different forms of the vice. This is not my opinion, but the experience of all wise people through the centuries.

Common experience tells us that God made human beings differently. We have our strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses of women are more obvious in communal spaces, and the weaknesses of men more obvious privately. “Men and women He created them”, and nothing less. Women should be subject, quiet, humble, and loving; men should be dominant, strong, bold, and protecting. It is a mutual help, a synthesis! We are different, not equal.

What can women do? They are certainly not leaders by nature, but nurturers. Women keep the children, the home, and the emotions, while men keep the workplace, fellow men, and logic. Women can, no doubt, be workers, friends, and logical: but these virtues are more proper to the stern mind of men. As childish as we men can be, we are built differently. We are leaders, and women are excellent in what they do. There are various and diverse ways women can “lead” in Church, anyway: by prayer and holy example.

 

[SouthpawLink]

My, how times have changed:

“Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: ‘Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21” (Pope Benedict XIV, Allatae Sunt, n. 29; 26 July 1755).

papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm