What Lutherans Confess

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Well I’ve lurked here off and on for about a month. I stand amazed at what I read. How in the world can there be so much blah blah blah about Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions when so few have taken the time to study the Scriptures or those confessions. Therefore, lets start again.
  1. Scripture alone. What does that mean to a Lutheran?
    The Bible is the Word of the Triune God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Sprit. This means the Bible is inspired by God and is inerrant in all that it teaches. Take a look at John 1: 1-14.
    God cannot lie, “pull the wool over ones eyes,” or any other shenanigans. What He says in Scripture is truth. John 17:17 "SANCTIFY THEM IN THE TRUTH; YOUR WORD IS TRUTH. Psalm 119:160 THE SUM OF YOUR WORD IS TRUTH, AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR RIGHTEOUS ORDINANCES IS EVERLASTING. John 6:68 …"LORD, TO WHOM SHALL WE GO? YOU HAVE THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE,”
    So therefore:
    a. God created the world in six days and the evening and morning is a 24 hour day, not eons.
    b. There really was an Adam and Eve and they really did eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Original sin.
    c. Noah built an ark, The WHOLE world was flooded, all people except Noah and his family died.
    d. Jonah really was swallowed by a great “fish” for three days, etc
    If you doubt those stories, then how can you be sure that what the Gospels say about Christ is true? How can you be sure that Jesus was nailed to a cross to take away your sins. How can you be sure that there was even a Christ?
    Oh by the way, for those who say that “Luther removed the Apocrypha from the Canon,” Those books were not part of Scripture until the Council of Trent said they were. See the link wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=41&cuItem_itemID=9847 BUT hay, those Lutherans lie allot, every good Catholic knows that.
  2. Lutherans confess the Creeds. The Apostles, The Nicene and the Athanasian. These three creeds are not in the Bible. However, they are true statements about what the Bible teaches. Same with the Lutheran Confessions, they are a true reflection of what is taught in Scripture. Lutherans did change the word catholic to Christian in the creeds. After all that is what catholic means. This was done as a confession against what was and still is taught at/from the Council of Trent when we realized the church of Rome was not going to reform some of its teachings. And NO, JDDJ did not smooth the article of Justification over. It just made many false Lutherans. PS - It was the Papacy the first used the term Lutheran as a derogatory put down.
  3. Grace alone. Lutherans believe that we cannot by our own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, or Lord, nor come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called us by the Gospel, enlightened us with his gifts, sanctifies and keeps us in the true faith. We do not earn salvation, in fact in it is stated in 1Co 2:14 BUT A NATURAL MAN DOES NOT ACCEPT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS TO HIM; AND HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY APPRAISED.
    We cannot “love” God enough so that he takes “pity on us” and gives us faith. We cannot sacrifice enough (my understanding of Mass) to have God look favorably on us
    Hos 6:6 FOR I DESIRE STEADFAST LOVE AND NOT SACRIFICE, THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD RATHER THAN BURNT OFFERINGS
    Rom 6:23 FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, BUT THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
    Eph 2:8 FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD;
    Eph 3:7 OF WHICH I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT OF GOD’S GRACE WHICH WAS GIVEN TO ME ACCORDING TO THE WORKING OF HIS POWER.
CONT. on next post
 
  1. Faith Alone Eph 2:8 FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD;
    Lutherans believe we cannot work our way to heaven. We cannot do good works in order to be able to say to Christ on judgment day “hay I earned heaven”, for those of you who aren’t “blowing me off” by now, read Matt 25: 32-46. The sheep said, “Hay! When did we do that” and the goats said, “Hay! We did that.” Faith alone.
    It is Faith that that says I am a poor miserable sinner. God in His righteous Judgment has every right to condemn us to hell except for the fact that Christ Jesus paid the penalty for all those sins on a cross on a hill about 2000 years ago. Lutherans believe Christ when He says those sin have been forgiven. It is faith alone that says I’m a Saint because of Christ.
    Habakkuk 2:4 “BEHOLD, HIS SOUL IS PUFFED UP; IT IS NOT UPRIGHT WITHIN HIM, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL LIVE BY HIS FAITH.
    Rom 1:17 FOR IN IT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM FAITH FOR FAITH, AS IT IS WRITTEN, “THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
    Heb 10:38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH, AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.”
  2. Lutherans believe that through Christ alone, a man or woman will be saved. The first Commandment is quite clear.
    Exo 20:3-6 "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A CARVED IMAGE, OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, OR THAT IS IN THE EARTH BENEATH, OR THAT IS IN THE WATER UNDER THE EARTH. YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM OR SERVE THEM, FOR I THE LORD YOUR GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS ON THE CHILDREN TO THE THIRD AND THE FOURTH GENERATION OF THOSE WHO HATE ME, BUT SHOWING STEADFAST LOVE TO THOUSANDS OF THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.
John 14:6-11 JESUS SAID TO HIM, “I AM THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. IF YOU HAD KNOWN ME, YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN MY FATHER ALSO. FROM NOW ON YOU DO KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM.” … …"HAVE I BEEN WITH YOU SO LONG, AND YOU STILL DO NOT KNOW ME, PHILIP? WHOEVER HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER. HOW CAN YOU SAY, ‘SHOW US THE FATHER’? DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN ME? THE WORDS THAT I SAY TO YOU I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN AUTHORITY, BUT THE FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME DOES HIS WORKS. BELIEVE ME THAT I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN ME, OR ELSE BELIEVE ON ACCOUNT OF THE WORKS THEMSELVES.

And that leaves an awful lot of non-Christian people, (about 4 billion if there are 2 billion Christians) Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Mormon and whoever else who don’t know Christ, in peril of their souls.

Now you will get Lutherans on here saying, “Well I don’t believe that, or this” or some other such nonsense. That leaves an awful lot of so called Lutherans in peril for their souls also.

In Christ, and may He give peace and understanding to all in this His Advent of return.
Just a
littlesheep
 
Hi littlesheep,
I’m fairly new to this forum also. Welcome!! I see you wrote this in the morning. I trust you have calmed down a bit. 🙂 Breath with me 👍 .

Have you ever read any books from Scott Hahn or Peter Kreeft? You sound a lot like them…before they converted to the Roman Catholic Church. However, much of what you said, we Catholics believe too. Thru the Grace of the Lord Jesus, are we saved from eternal death.
Some of the other stuff you said, I will let others debate. I’m holding a sick baby right now :o
But as far as ‘Sola Scriptura’ is concerned, it’s not scriptura…alone. St. Paul tells us ‘to stand firm and hold fast to the traditions we have taught to you by our letter and orally’.

“Lutherans did change the word catholic to Christian in the creeds. After all that is what catholic means.”…No, it means ‘universal’.
“PS - It was the Papacy the first used the term Lutheran as a derogatory put down.”…I wasn’t aware of that. Question, why did the “followers of Luthers’ teaching” go with being called Lutherns if it was a derogatory remark…a put down? :rolleyes:

The Roman Catholic Church and the German Luthern Church both concluded that ‘we’ are both teaching Salvation, just not the using the same verbage. The eccumenical(sp) counsels of many denominations are working toward unity in battling the evils of the world.
You’ve been reading some postings for awhile, if you have been offended, then on behalf of Catholics here, I’m sorry. That’s what Pope John Paul II said to: you(Protestants), Muslims and Jews.

Lets not ‘lurk’ around the forum any more. We both love Jesus!

…so, ‘hello brother!!!’

Peace and love of Jesus be with you,

Scott
 
Hi Little Sheep,

Welcome to the forums. I read your post with great interest… my children attended a Misouri Synod Lutheran School for several years… I had to pull them out and homeschool them because our Pastor told me point blank that the story of Adam & Eve wasn’t true… and neither were any of the other OT stories like Noah & the flood - Jonah etc. He also told me that although he didn’t agree with abortion, he would drive a parishoner to get one if she needed a ride & “help her through the process.” He also told me that Jesus was the Messiah for Christians… but maybe Muhammad (sp?) was the Messiah for Muslums… who are we to say? The final straw (and I’m not sure why THIS made me say, “Enough!”) was when he told my 6th grade son that if Brittney Spears died today she would go straight to heaven - despite her sinful lifestyle because if a person is baptized they are sealed with the cross forever and it doesn’t matter WHAT they do in their life - it’s all by GRACE. Not really the message I want for my teenager - live it up… doesn’t matter because you’ve been baptized.

I don’t think the Bible teaches that at all. That is the main reason we left that school & my children are no longer Lutheran. It sounds like you would disagree with most of what my Pastor said… (the Bible being made up etc.) but I’m wondering how you’d respond to the Brittney Spears thing. But first let me clarify… I don’t know her personally or her heart - only God can judge a person… but suppose she was living a totally sinful life… do you think that because she’s a Child of God through Baptism - she’s bound for heaven regardless?
 
From another thread on this site
Thus, it is said, the things He has hidden from the learned and cleaver, He has revealed to mere children.
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Now here is something to sink our teeth into.
What is childlike faith? Ask a 5 year old "Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so” No haggling over Doctrine, no who is right and who is wrong. Just a simple little ditty – “Jesus loves “me””
Now with that said -Yes - Paul said get past the milk, get some real food, and grow in faith. How is that done? Word and Sacrament.

Now let me tie that in with Sacred Tradition, which puts many of what is being called dogma of the Catholic Church at the best outside Scripture. At the worst even goes against Scripture.

Mary and the IC

Rom 3:23 “*for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” * Can’t get clearer then that. And I’m not even reaching with this passage like some have and do in Gen 3: 15,16.
The Christian church baptizes infants and always has because of what we say ALL means. So either All don’t mean all (then the Calvinist and the Reformed are right) or Mary sinned. Can’t have it both ways. Kind of like a big Leap of Faith?

Praying to the Saints or as, here on this site likely to be stated as “asking the Saints to pray for us.”

Matt 6:9 Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.

Who is Christ teaching His disciples to pray to, Abraham? Their Dads? Nope, but to “Our Father who is in heaven.” Now I could almost go along with asking the Saints to pray for us because “God is not a god of the dead but of the living” except that the two words ask and pray have the same meaning, and Christ did not teach his disciples to pray to His mother but to His Father. No interceding needed, besides, nowhere in Scripture is there an example of someone praying to anybody but God or an idol. Extra Biblical - And don’t use Saul talking to a dead Samuel as an example, as someone in a different forum tried. That flies like a rock without wings.

Can some ideas of the Church Fathers as espoused in their writings be wrong? You bet. They are not considered inspired and inerrant are they? If they are then we have way more books of the Bible then 66 or 72. Some of those ideas then could be and are wrong. Satin ferments heresies, some big, like Arius for example, and some small. Nevertheless, both types are sneaky Ie Mormons use the same words as Christians but mean something entirely different.

Another instance “Mary as a co-redeemer.” When did that idea get started in the church? And it is just getting started. Only after the “Hay Mary is conceived without sin” idea and oh yes watch out because that cancer is growing.

Remember when Christ was the only way of salvation? And those outside the Roman Catholic Church were damned, including us Lutherans. Humm! Like before Vatican II. And yet I’ve heard that John Paul II stated even those without Christ could be saved if they were sincere in their beliefs. Muslim Jew and Hindu. (Lets not put a limit on Gods mercy, but the only way “we” know of being saved, is what is told to us in Scripture. Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.)
Matt 16:13-18 *Now when Jesus … He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.“ * Only Christens can say with Peter, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Don’t believe me? Ask those of other beliefs who they say Jesus is, you will get qualifiers aplenty.

I’ve have seen 3 or 4 different definitions of Faith on this board. So not everyone is agreeing on what even Faith means. Well for those of you who don’t know, or want to find out how it is defined, read a little bit of Hebrews 11. That there is a pretty good definition.

I’m not saying these things to start a quarrel. Nor am I looking to convert you to Lutheran. I’m saying these things to you because a lot of what I’ve read here says that there is some bad theology out there. So be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 * Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. * Just don’t take the Churches word for it, after all those guys didn’t even take Paul and Silas word for it. Ask questions about your faith like a 10 year old, ask why the sky is blue. Then after dad tells you go to the science book and see if he is right.

Just a
littlesheep
 
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littlesheep:
I’m not saying these things to start a quarrel. Nor am I looking to convert you to Lutheran. I’m saying these things to you because a lot of what I’ve read here says that there is some bad theology out there. So be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 * Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. * Just don’t take the Churches word for it, after all those guys didn’t even take Paul and Silas word for it. Ask questions about your faith like a 10 year old, ask why the sky is blue. Then after dad tells you go to the science book and see if he is right.

Just a
littlesheep
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Hello Christian Brother

Maybe you are right to not just take the “Church’s word for it”, based on your interpretation. But now lets ask what Scriptures the Bereans were looking at. It isn’t the New Testament and all its 27 books. The Bereans just did some cross-checking between the prophecies of the Messiah and what Paul was teaching about Jesus. The Church doesn’t just spew words, it gets the teaching authority by way of Apostolic Tradition and Scripture. Scripture is sacred to the Church and the Bereans are just proving why the Old Testament is so sacred.

Your mentioning of that particular part of Acts is interesting and so it begs the question. How do you know the 27 books of the New Testament are sacred? Somebody had to put it all together and decide if it was sacred or not. Was it God? I never knew an instance where God spreads his Word by raining books from the heavens. And Jesus didn’t hand out bibles either, it ain’t in scripture. Was it Luther? Did he do the decisions even though he was 1,200 years removed from the completion of the New Testament? So how do you know that the 27 New Testament books are sacred and who decided on it, who’s word are you going to take about it?. Once you find out, crack open a reputable history book and see if you are right.

BTW if Luther managed to remove the Revelations from Scripture it would have been an absolute tragedy. Protestent theories on the end-time add so much to American culture. :rolleyes:
 
Littlesheep,
I appreciate your comments and respect them. Surely you have read the following. If not, I thought you might find this interesting.

IT IS A SWEET AND PIOUS BELIEF THAT THE INFUSION OF MARY’S SOUL WAS EFFECTED WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN; SO THAT IN THE VERY INFUSION OF HER SOUL SHE WAS ALSO PURIFIED FROM ORIGINAL SIN AND ADORNED WITH GOD’S GIFTS, RECEIVING A PURE SOUL INFUSED BY GOD; THUS FROM THE FIRST MOMENT SHE BEGAN TO LIVE SHE WAS FREE FROM ALL SIN.

MARTIN LUTHER, 1527 SERMON: “ON THE DAY OF THE CONCEPTION OF THE MOTHER OF GOD.”
Matt 6:9 Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.
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I’m not sure what your saying here…only pray the Lords prayer? Or only referring to the Father when praying? When Catholics pray for saintly intervention, we start the prayer envoking the Trinity…“In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”. Then at the end of the prayer we conclude,“we ask this thru Christ our Lord”. Seems like we cover all the bases there.

It seems you put limits on God and his Grace. If it isn’t explicitly said in the Bible…what, it doesn’t exist? It can’t be? I agree with ‘one simplemind’ that Jesus didn’t leave us the Bible, he did leave His church. We trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church and the fallible men Jesus put in charge of that church. With the Holy Spirit they are infallible when it comes to the teaching of the Word. You don’t disagree do you? Ofcourse you don’t, if you did then you’d be saying that the Bible couldn’t possiblly be accurate or without error. But we know that isn’t so. After all the Bible was written by men who were *inspired * by the Holy Spirit. It can’t and didn’t end with the original 12 Apostles, if so then the Bible is again all wrong in saying the remaining eleven cast lots and chose another to replace Judas. (Apostolic succession, even though it doesn’t explicitly say that)Am I to believe that’s all.

It is a error to teach that the Bible is our sole authority, why? Because it can not contain everything of God. God doesn’t fit in a book. The Church is a living, breathing body and Christ is the head. But you know this. 👍
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
KJV Bible

Concerning Purgatory…which I’m sure you don’t believe.
MATT. 5:26,18:34; LUKE 12:58-59 –
MATT. 5:48
MATT. 12:32
LUKE 12:47-48
LUKE 16:19-31
1 COR. 15:29-30
2 MACC. 12:44-45
PHIL. 2:10
2 TIM. 1:16-18
HEB. 12:14
HEB. 12:23
1 PETER 3:19; 4:6
REV. 21:4
LUKE 23:43
GEN. 50:10; NUM. 20:29; DEUT. 34:8 .
BARUCH 3:4
ZECH. 9:11
2 MACC. 12:43-45

If the bible teaches against or doesn’t endorse these; Mary and IC, Saintly intercession and sacraments. It sure says a great deal about whats to come after death. The point is that you and I can’t nor shouldn’t try to interpret the Bible without the Church. Only thru the Church(Apostolic instruction) can we understand Sacred Scripture.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
KJV

I wish all Christians could start to look at what we share in common and not to focus on what we don’t. The enemy isn’t Luthern or Catholic, it’s sin. and evil(Satan, demon and devils). People in the Church are far from perfect, of course, Adam and Eve were sinless until they fell from Grace. What!? God created people without sin!? Hmmm. :rolleyes:

Peace to you,

Scott
P.S. If I don’t hear from you before hand…Merry Christmas and be safe in all your travels this Holiday(Holy Day) season.
 
Here’s another thought. Do you understand everything that Martin Luther wrote? Or John Calvin? John Knox? I certainly don’t nor do I of the writings of Pope John Paul II, St. Fustina, St. John of the Cross, St. Augustine, St. Ignatius or St.Fancis of Assisi.
I believe these people were very wise and scholarly…well not all(St. Fustina) were scholarly Much of what they wrote was inspiring, thought provoking, profound and very,very deep. I don’t understand all that they spoke of.

It would be easy for me to say that Luther was goofey in the head, for the only things I know about him are his writings on Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidea(sp); and what I know is limited.
It is equally easy for a non-Catholic(Roman) to think the ‘theology of the body’ is wacked or the ‘dark night of the soul’ sounds paganish or ‘Mary as co-redeemer’ appears to be idolatrous.
We would both be wrong about each others theology.
Another instance “Mary as a co-redeemer.” When did that idea get started in the church? And it is just getting started. Only after the “Hay Mary is conceived without sin” idea and oh yes watch out because that cancer is growing.
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My limited understanding is thus: Mary is not understood to be equal in the redeption of mankind. There is only one Redeemer; Jesus. It’s more about being a mother who suffered in the suffering of her only son Jesus. To know and accept that her son, the Son of God, must fullfill prophecy and be tortured and crucified to death in order to save mankind. What anguish she must have gone thru. Though we understand that Mary was steadfast in her support and an intergal part of Jesus’ mission; and by being with the Apostles in the upper room gave hope to them, during their time of uncertainty, that Jesus would rise and come to them again. We are all co-redeemers in Christ Jesus in that we offer ourselves as Christ did. To give our body,heart, mind and soul to God. Are we not to imitate Christ? Aren’t we supposed to be ‘Christ like’. What models do we have?..what human models?
Yes, Jesus was human, but he was fully Divine. Mary was only human and perserved from sin.(well, we believe that…and Martin Luther 🙂 )

Roman Catholics do not worship Mary!

Again, Merry Christmas,

Scott
 
Bible alone? They say that all other documents of the CC which is not in the Bible is a fallible document. Here’s my question, Is’nt it that the CC chose among hundreds of documents on what must be placed in the bible? It is not Jesus Christ per se. It is still the CC with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

But it doesn’t mean that what was left were not to be followed. What was not included in the Bible out of the hundreds of documents were the Traditions and Bible supports the Tradition of the CC.
 
I pulled this from another thread in which I wrote the following

One of the things that I have a hard time with is when Tradition becomes dogma, a little history lesson.
There was a man who once fought against tradition when it had become dogma. Now this man was a very good man, he followed the traditions of his time up to a point. See at eight days he was circumcised. At the age of 12 he was Bar Mitzvahed, but at 30 he started to rile against some of the church’s tradition. Most of what he taught rubbed the church leaders the wrong way. These church leaders had a lot of Tradition behind them, almost 500 years worth and his teachings went against the grain. So much so that the church leaders with whom he was in conflict with hated him. He was breaking their Traditions left and right. It took them 3 years, but they finally had him nailed to a cross. His story has been written down for us in 4 books. What was is source of his teachings “Have you not read?”
Matt 12:3 He said to them, “** Have you not read** what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Matt 12:5 Or** *have you not read ***in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Matt 19:4 He answered, " ***Have you not read ***that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matt 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, ***Have you not read ***what was said to you by God:
Matt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Mark 12:10 Have you not read this Scripture: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
Luke 6:3 And Jesus answered them, " ***Have you not read ***what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:

seems like Scripture to me. Now just who was this renegade? God, God incarnate, The Lord Jesus Christ. And if God don’t like Tradition turned into dogma why should we?

Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Luke 24:32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the Scriptures?"
 
Peace be with you!

littlesheep,

As super64 pointed out, Luther himself believed in not only Mary’s Immaculate Conception, but also her perpetual virginity. Here is a link you may find interesting: ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

And as far as the Church “adding” the books of the Deuterocanonicals (which you call “Apocrypha”) at the Council of Trent…well, I am getting a little tired of having to explain this to people that refuse to do any research whatsoever and take the word of anti-Catholics as final.
If the Catholic Church added these seven books at the Council of Trent, then why do they appear in the Canon of Scripture in the canons of the 3rd and 4th Councils of Carthage (397 and 419 AD)? Why do they appear in the Canon of Scripture from the Synod of Rome (I don’t believe this was actually a council) in 382 AD? Why do they appear in the Canon of Scripture from Hippo in 393 AD? The Council of Trent merely reiterated that they were Inspired Scripture and must be accepted as such. The 1611 KJV had them in it, though they were appendicized and without verse numbers.

You say that you believe in Sola Scriptura because it contains the Truth. And you won’t find a Catholic in the world that will argue with that. The only difference here is that we believe that the Bible is not the ONLY way that God made His will known. The Bible never says it is to be the sole rule of faith, remember.

Catholics also believe in Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). There is no need to argue that point. What we don’t believe is by FAITH alone (sola fide). There is quite a big distinction between the two.

And I’m sorry, but your link was absolutely HORRIBLE. The responder says, “People who argue that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church that Jesus Christ founded, and that it is “inerrant and infallible, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” are not open to our arguments from history or Scripture.” That’s funny…Catholics absolutely LOVE to argue from history as it is COMPLETELY on our side. The person also says that the Catholic Church did not decide for the Eastern Orthodox Church to “add” the “Apocrypha” to the Bible. Well, the Eastern Church has ALWAYS had those books as part of their canon, just as the Western Church has.

I would appreciate a responce to the issues I have addressed.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Howdy little sheep and welcome to a dynamic site.

For myself I am a very conservative RCC returned to the faith after flirting with Buddhism, my mum who is Lutheran and regular church reader, greeter etc. so come on in.

I believe that God alone has the power to weigh up the hearts and souls of His children and we His children would do better if we remembered the Beatitudes and “Love one another as I have love you”.

Welcome aboard…
 
Speaking of what Lutherans Confess…
I was raised a Lutheran and attended a LCMS Church for most of my life.
It wasn’t untill I actually sat down and read through Luther’s Catechism that I realized that Confession was part of the Lutheran faith.

How on earth was I part of the Lutheran Church for decades and hadn’t even heard of Confession as being anything other than a “Catholic innovation”. Anyway it’s apparently not practiced too much anymore.

So littlesheep, do you use the Lutheran formula for Confession that is in Luther’s Catechism when you go to confession to a Lutheran minister?
 
Oh… Also…
When you go to confession to a Lutheran Minister does he say the following…
“Do you believe that my forgiveness is God’s forgiveness?
Let it be done for you as you believe. And I, by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, forgive you your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Go in peace.”

I am no longer Lutheran but I’m real curious if any Lutherans practice this really “Catholic” behavior which is part of their faith?
 
Here is a link to Luther’s Small Catechism with his suggested formula for confession…
 
Oh, one more point…

My best friend is Lutheran and has been Lutheran his whole life. Recently (in the past several months) he has begun reading the Church Fathers and other theologians. He is not at the point of becoming Catholic yet (and I’m not sure if he will) but he seems to be pretty darn close. In fact, he has stated that based on what people were doing in the early Church and what they believed (the Church Fathers) that he realizes that to be Christian one has to do “the things the Catholic Church does”. He also has told me that he now trusts Catholic theologians over almost any other Christians.

And littlesheep, this is not just a regular Joe Lutheran. My friend is studying theology at Concordia University and is planning on becoming a youth pastor with the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod). He has realized, after seeing what people were taught by the Apostles before the Bible existed as a single volume, that we are not saved by faith alone, nor is the Bible to be our sole rule of faith.
Oh, yes, and all of this occurred while studying under Lutheran professors. He and I have only begun to talk about this stuff in the past couple weeks.

In Christ,
Rand
 
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matthias:
Here is a link to Luther’s Small Catechism with his suggested formula for confession…
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Peace be with you!

Note that Luther also tells people to cross themselves before they pray. I’ve never seen any Lutherans do that.

In Christ,
Rand
 
LittleSheep, are you sure you are Lutheran? As I being an ex-Pentecostal hear the taint of Fundalmentalism in you.

Because if you were a Lutheran, you would not come here with the Issue of Sola Scriptura. Here is some information on Martin Luther.

The greatest name in the records of the Protestant church is Martin Luther. He is generally recognized as its founder; he is considered one of the highest authorities on the Bible; he devoted a large portion of his life to its study; he made a translation of it for his people, a work which is accepted as one of the classics of German literature. With Luther the Bible superseded the church as a divine authority. And yet this greatest of Protestants rejected no less than six of the sixty-six books composing the Protestant Bible.

Luther rejected the book of Esther. He says: “I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist.” In his “Bondage of the Will,”

He rejected the book of Jonah. He says: “The history of Jonah is so monstrous as to be absolutely incredible.” (Colloquia, Chap. LX., Sec. 10).

He rejected Hebrews: “The Epistle to the Hebrews is not by St. Paul; nor, indeed, by any apostle.” (Standing Preface to Luther’s New Testament).

He rejected the Epistle of James: “St. James’ Epistle is truly an epistle of straw.” (Preface to Edition of 1524).

He rejected Jude. “The Epistle of Jude,” he says, “allegeth stories and sayings which have no place in Scripture." (Standing Preface).

He rejected Revelation. He says: “I can discover no trace that it is established by the Holy Spirit.” (Preface to Edition of 1622).

As said earlier imagine how things would be different if he had succeeded in having these books removed from the Bible as he did the Apocrpha! If had succeeded, us Catholics would not now have a ground to stand on for some issues. But thru the intervention of God thru his councelors whom persuaded him not to remove at least these six books,

I would hazard a guess that his thesis was based on the future removal of these books.

God bless littlesheep, may you find your true shepherd…
 
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littlesheep:
I pulled this from another thread in which I wrote the following

One of the things that I have a hard time with is when Tradition becomes dogma, a little history lesson.
There was a man who once fought against tradition when it had become dogma. Now this man was a very good man, he followed the traditions of his time up to a point. See at eight days he was circumcised. At the age of 12 he was Bar Mitzvahed, but at 30 he started to rile against some of the church’s tradition. Most of what he taught rubbed the church leaders the wrong way. These church leaders had a lot of Tradition behind them, almost 500 years worth and his teachings went against the grain. So much so that the church leaders with whom he was in conflict with hated him. He was breaking their Traditions left and right. It took them 3 years, but they finally had him nailed to a cross. His story has been written down for us in 4 books. What was is source of his teachings “Have you not read?”
Matt 12:3 He said to them, “** Have you not read** what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Matt 12:5 Or** *have you not read ***in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Matt 19:4 He answered, " ***Have you not read ***that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matt 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, ***Have you not read ***what was said to you by God:
Matt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Mark 12:10 Have you not read this Scripture: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
Luke 6:3 And Jesus answered them, " ***Have you not read ***what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:

seems like Scripture to me. Now just who was this renegade? God, God incarnate, The Lord Jesus Christ. And if God don’t like Tradition turned into dogma why should we?

Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Luke 24:32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the Scriptures?"
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Hi, Have you read…Genesis 3:15 You know where after the sad fall of Adam and Eve that God the Creator, addressed the temptor, you know the serpent(Satan) and told him in no uncertain terms "I will put enmity(opposition) between you and the Woman, and between your offspring and Hers(Christ the Lord) Total Opposition. Hmmmmm Let’s see, what would be the total opposite of being ensnared by the devil? Total opposite…could that be Sinless?Oh yes Jesus and by golly his Mother! Open to Scripture…I think so.
 
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