What made someone an apostle versus a disciple?

[Reuben_J]

p/s

A priest, however, functions as an ordinary citizen outside the Sacrament of Confession. If he witnesses a murder, thief or an accident on the highway, he can become a witness in court. Or as the case maybe, like any citizen, he can help to bring a criminal to the authority, like apprehending a snatch thief on the street if the priest is a karate expert. But not if the person comes to him to be ministered to in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession).

 

[Masters_Servant]

What, may I ask you, is God punishment for criminals? As far as I know, there is none. Who will throw the first stone? God’s punishment is to be meted in the afterlife not here on earth. Or are you following the laws in the Leviticus?

I tell you what – a priest would say what Jesus would have said. Repent, go and sin no more. Repentance means to turn 180 degrees from what you have done. It is not about stop doing what you are doing but it is about doing what you have not been doing. In other word, you will live according to the way of God instead of sinning. It is a proactive action. If you steal, you have to return what you have stolen. Remember Zachius? He returned the money back – four folds.

The priest cannot and should not turn him to the authority. The priest has no business doing police work or becomes vigilante. He is a spiritual minister. He advises in the things of God. Of course, one of it may include advising the penitent to give himself up to the police.

But I have the feeling you do not really understand what it mean by repentance.

What do you mean a person become a law unto himself in the Sacrament of Confession? How can that be? If you repent you will go back to the Lord and follow his way. A repented Christian is always a good Christian, a good person and contributing goodness to the society. There should not be any duplicity.

If a person abuses the Sacrament of Confession, then he is actually not repenting of his sin and God will deal with that.

I have the feeling that you actually want the priest to act as an enforcement officer – a policeman. No, that’s not his responsibility and it is not practical to put that responsibility on a priest. I don’t know about Protestants, maybe you expect your pastor to do that, I am not sure.

So a priest is to turn a blind eye onto a confessor who would not turn himself in for stealing. You are correct a true Christian would go to the store owner and confess and payback and leave it to the store owners discretion as to follow with criminal charges, sice he is guilty of breaking the law. However; if the person was told by the priest to do this and the priest knew he ignored his advice, then are you saying the priest should not turn the man over to the authorities?

What if he confessed rape? The confessor cannot undue the rape and the law says he should be tried in a court of law which God ordained, to answer your first question.

I know what repentance is from a Biblical perspective; I’m trying to understand how it works in your church.

 

[Reuben_J]

So a priest is to turn a blind eye onto a confessor who would not turn himself in for stealing.

Yes. To do otherwise would betray the oath of confidentiality between a penitent and the priest. Remember, a sin is between man and God alone. Christianity is not Islam, for example, where spiritual sin is punishable by Syariah court.

Priest’s function, as I have said, is not to take the place of police. He is a spiritual minister. His function as servant and minister of God is to save soul. Criminal punishment is for secular justice.

Again, you have to understand what Sacrament of Penance is all about.

You are correct a true Christian would go to the store owner and confess and payback and leave it to the store owners discretion as to follow with criminal charges, sice he is guilty of breaking the law. However; if the person was told by the priest to do this and the priest knew he ignored his advice, then are you saying the priest should not turn the man over to the authorities?

No, again because the information was obtained during the Sacrament of Confession. Even if it is murder, the priest will not betray the trust of the penitent. He cannot disclose whatever is being confessed under no circumstances whatsoever. Similarly, a penitent cannot disclose what has been confessed.

Again, I want to bring your attention to what it means by repentance since Confession is about repentance. A repented Christian will do you wonders. Do you agree or not? He will do what is necessary to make good the wrong he has done according to the will of God.

What if he confessed rape? The confessor cannot undue the rape and the law says he should be tried in a court of law which God ordained, to answer your first question.

Same thing applies. Why do you want the priest to do all this public prosecution? This is police job. A rapist should be dealt with like any other rapists. Our country law has sufficient provision to deal with this. We cannot use the Sacrament of Confession to extract confession of a criminal. Even after a person confesses, it is not the end of it. It does not mean the police cannot take action against the crime committed but they have to do their part to prosecute the guilty, as usual.

I know what repentance is from a Biblical perspective; I’m trying to understand how it works in your church.

Sorry to imply that you do not know. So do you agree with me on my understanding of repentance then?

Juts to make it easier for you to understand … Repentance through the sacrament is no different than personal repentance. Protestants, except for certain denoms, do not go to the priest to confess. You confess your sin directly to God. Thus rightly it is between you and God. Do you then after confessing report yourself to the police?

Of course, a penitent can always report himself to the police if he wants to but it is not for the priest to report him.

Similarly, that’s what happened to Catholics except that we go to the priest to confess. Still, it is between us and God, the Sacrament is just an outward sign (visible sign) of an inward grace. As to whether the repentance is sincere or not depends very much on the penitent himself – same to Protestants too, I think. The Sacrament will mean nothing to his forgiveness if he is not sincere.

God bless.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

As a sidebar, Rueben J, I’d say that the priest could have the offender turn himself in as a requirement of his penance. Don’t you agree?

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes. To do otherwise would betray the oath of confidentiality between a penitent and the priest. Remember, a sin is between man and God alone. Christianity is not Islam, for example, where spiritual sin is punishable by Syariah court.

Priest’s function, as I have said, is not to take the place of police. He is a spiritual minister. His function as servant and minister of God is to save soul. Criminal punishment is for secular justice.

Again, you have to understand what Sacrament of Penance is all about.

No, again because the information was obtained during the Sacrament of Confession. Even if it is murder, the priest will not betray the trust of the penitent. He cannot disclose whatever is being confessed under no circumstances whatsoever. Similarly, a penitent cannot disclose what has been confessed.

Again, I want to bring your attention to what it means by repentance since Confession is about repentance. A repented Christian will do you wonders. Do you agree or not? He will do what is necessary to make good the wrong he has done according to the will of God.

Same thing applies. Why do you want the priest to do all this public prosecution? This is police job. A rapist should be dealt with like any other rapists. Our country law has sufficient provision to deal with this. We cannot use the Sacrament of Confession to extract confession of a criminal. Even after a person confesses, it is not the end of it. It does not mean the police cannot take action against the crime committed but they have to do their part to prosecute the guilty, as usual.

Sorry to imply that you do not know. So do you agree with me on my understanding of repentance then?

Juts to make it easier for you to understand … Repentance through the sacrament is no different than personal repentance. Protestants, except for certain denoms, do not go to the priest to confess. You confess your sin directly to God. Thus rightly it is between you and God. Do you then after confessing report yourself to the police?

Of course, a penitent can always report himself to the police if he wants to but it is not for the priest to report him.

Similarly, that’s what happened to Catholics except that we go to the priest to confess. Still, it is between us and God, the Sacrament is just an outward sign (visible sign) of an inward grace. As to whether the repentance is sincere or not depends very much on the penitent himself – same to Protestants too, I think. The Sacrament will mean nothing to his forgiveness if he is not sincere.

God bless.

I understand a lot about why their exists so many problems within the church when it comes to repentance among priests; if what you say is accurate, which i really hope it isn’t, but i believe from my own studies that what you said is very accurate and also contrary to the Word of God IMO. IMO the priest who would ask a person to consider turning themselves in and then did not and the priest gave them a second chance and the person did not turn themselves in and the priest did nothing, then the priest is guilt of having knowledge of a serious crime and doing noting about it, which make him an accessory to the crime at the expense of the victim and in favor of the perpetrator. This is exactly what we have seen among priests and I now have some understanding as to why it has been a problem ever since the confessional began, which I cannot remember at this moment, but it was never used by the writers of the NT, so it evolved overtime.

Thanks for your help in understanding how the system of confession works within your church; i disagree with it, but you have solidified what I recall learning. So unless someone corrects you i am going with what I believed and what you have confirmed, again thanks.

 

[Masters_Servant]

As a sidebar, Rueben J, I’d say that the priest could have the offender turn himself in as a requirement of his penance. Don’t you agree?

That is the premise I am going on and I would suspect that a majority of priests would say that along with some other act of repentance as well.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I understand a lot about why their exists so many problems within the church when it comes to repentance among priests; if what you say is accurate, which i really hope it isn’t, but i believe from my own studies that what you said is very accurate and also contrary to the Word of God IMO

See James 5:16: “16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.”

Since we’re on this rabbit trail, how do you follow this verse at your church?

 

[Reuben_J]

As a sidebar, Rueben J, I’d say that the priest could have the offender turn himself in as a requirement of his penance. Don’t you agree?

Yes, that’s what I am trying to say. I guess the idea seems to be lost in the post.

To Masters Servant:

Possible scenerio of Catholics repentance and forgiveness of sin.

(1) A man committed murder. He regretted his action and went for Sacrament of Confession and confessed this sin. The priest counseled him (that may include advising him to give himself up to the authority as part of his penance and restitution) and absolved him of his sin. The man as a follow-up of the confession, in his penance gave himself up to the authority. He was found guilty and hanged.

Though that happen albeit rarely, this is more common:

(2) A man committed murder, got caught and put in prison. While waiting for the death sentence to be carried out, he regretted his action, and went for confession.

In both cases, the murderers were forgiven of their sin but punished by secualar law (as a penance?).

My point is a priest can never break the **seal of confession **no matter how much the world wants to see that to happen.

 

[Masters_Servant]

See James 5:16: “16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.”

Since we’re on this rabbit trail, how do you follow this verse at your church?

This can fall into accountability; if i sin against my wife, then I have also sinned against God; therefore my conscience convicts me thanks to the HS and I will confess my sin against my wife to my wife and also to the Lord. Likewise my neighbor and likewise God alone. You will not find a confessional in the Scripture; that is an invention by your Church.

As far as the church aspect; if I see a person in the church sinning inside or outside of the church, then you would go to them. In this particular passage, many people believe the elder coming over to anoint with oil to heal the sick is a physical sickness, but it is a spiritual sickness or actually weakness caused by sin. I fail to see how this remotely relates to a confessional booth; partly because the priest is not scriptural; especially to the order of Melchizedek; Hebrews makes the comparison and contrast, the one contrast that should be glaring is that one of the differences between the levitical priesthood and of Melchizedek is that the Levictical priests kept dying, like your priests, while the other is perpetual, never dies, which is why it is called superior and why it refers only to Jesus because He is the only true Priest who never dies. Other than that the only other priesthood in the NT is the royal priesthood of believers or saints.

But that is your religion and what you believe Hebrews teaches; i disagree and would never call anyone “Father” except God and would never recognize anyone as priest in the sense that your religion teaches; i would consider myself more qualified as a priest in my “religion”", which is my personal relation ship with the only High Priest, Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. That is my believe and my knowledge of Scripture as taught by the guiding of the Holy Spirit as He promised.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

That is the premise I am going on and I would suspect that a majority of priests would say that along with some other act of repentance as well.

Requirements to receive the Sacrament are a firm purpose of amendment and contrition, meaning the sinner must be sorry for the sins committed (contrition) and change his life in the future (purpose of amendment):

It is not true that for the Catholic the mere “telling of one’s sins” suffices to obtain their forgiveness. Without sincere sorrow and purpose of amendment, confession avails nothing, the pronouncement of absolution is of no effect, and the guilt of the sinner is greater than before.

Source: Catholic Encyclopedia.

In theological language, this penance is called satisfaction and is defined, in the words of St. Thomas: “The payment of the temporal punishment due on account of the offence committed against God by sin” (Summa Theologicæ Supplement.12.3). It is an act of justice whereby the injury done to the honour of God is required, so far at least as the sinner is able to make reparation (poena vindicativa); it is also a preventive remedy, inasmuch as it is meant to hinder the further commission of sin (poena medicinalis). Satisfaction is not, like contrition and confession, an essential part of the sacrament, because the primary effect, i.e., remission of guilt and eternal punishment — is obtained without satisfaction; but it is an integral part, because it is requisite for obtaining the secondary effect — i.e., remission of the temporal punishment.

Same source.

For the legal issues you bring with the seal of confession, see here.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes, that’s what I am trying to say. I guess the idea seems to be lost in the post.

To Masters Servant:

Possible scenerio of Catholics repentance and forgiveness of sin.

(1) A man committed murder. He regretted his action and went for Sacrament of Confession and confessed this sin. The priest counseled him (that may include advising him to give himself up to the authority as part of his penance and restitution) and absolved him of his sin. The man as a follow-up of the confession, in his penance gave himself up to the authority. He was found guilty and hanged.

Though that happen albeit rarely, this is more common:

(2) A man committed murder, got caught and put in prison. While waiting for the death sentence to be carried out, he regretted his action, and went for confession.

In both cases, the murderers were forgiven of their sin but punished by secualar law (as a penance?).

My point is a priest can never break the **seal of confession **no matter how much the world wants to see that to happen.

I got the point and that was my understanding and your confirmation and I disagree with it 100%, but that is not the issue. You confirmed what I remembered as being true; it is similar to an attorney-client privileged or a doctor-patient relationship. Thanks for the help on confirming my understanding and Dance also concurs with you as well, so I think we are all on the same page…again thanks for the help.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Requirements to receive the Sacrament are a firm purpose of amendment and contrition, meaning the sinner must be sorry for the sins committed (contrition) and change his life in the future (purpose of amendment):
Source: Catholic Encyclopedia.

Same source.

For the legal issues you bring with the seal of confession, see here.

Thanks for the links.

 

[Reuben_J]

I understand a lot about why their exists so many problems within the church when it comes to repentance among priests; if what you say is accurate, which i really hope it isn’t, but i believe from my own studies that what you said is very accurate and also contrary to the Word of God IMO.

Maybe you can refresh me on what the Word of God says about this.

I can understand why you disagree with the theological aspect of confession to a confessor. I heard Protestants view on this quite clearly. Protestants stance is to confess directly to God and not to any man while Catholicism has the Sacrament of Penance. I will not go into that unless you want to – for further clarification.

I really don’t know whether it is about giving second chance to priests who commit pedophilia or not. I really don’t know. We may be Catholics but we are not privy to the process of how the decision is made. My guess as I had mentioned is that the sin is spiritual in nature and the solution is spiritual too. Mind you, there were culprit priests who were excommunicated – so it depends on the individual situation.

IMO the priest who would ask a person to consider turning themselves in and then did not and the priest gave them a second chance and the person did not turn themselves in and the priest did nothing, then the priest is guilt of having knowledge of a serious crime and doing noting about it, which make him an accessory to the crime at the expense of the victim and in favor of the perpetrator.

I think you are in error here. The priest certainly does something during a confession. Why we should ask him to make a police report based on what he hears during confession is rather puzzling knowing the nature of the Sacrament.

A question that needs to be asked is: How does criminals get caught? The probability of them getting caught should be the same regardless whether they are Catholic priests, Catholics or non-Catholics who do not go for confession. We are talking about a subject which is purely secular.

It is never easy to catch a pedophile and they happen everywhere but they can be caught nevertheless. If you we are talking about priests – what makes him different from a kindergarten teacher who commits the same crime? What about the victims themselves and their parents? All of them can play a part in bringing the culprit to secular justice.

This is exactly what we have seen among priests and I now have some understanding as to why it has been a problem ever since the confessional began, which I cannot remember at this moment, but it was never used by the writers of the NT, so it evolved overtime.

At best this is personal opinion and interpolation and one is entitled to it.

Thanks for your help in understanding how the system of confession works within your church; i disagree with it, but you have solidified what I recall learning. So unless someone corrects you i am going with what I believed and what you have confirmed, again thanks.

Thanks. Glad I can help but you can always get other opinion of course.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

This can fall into accountability; if i sin against my wife, then I have also sinned against God; therefore my conscience convicts me thanks to the HS and I will confess my sin against my wife to my wife and also to the Lord. Likewise my neighbor and likewise God alone. .

Agreed. This is what the penitent will do. The counsel of the confessor will help him further and give him the affirmation to support him to carry out what he should do.

You will not find a confessional in the Scripture; that is an invention by your Church. .

Agreed there is no confessional in the scripture. But confessional is perhaps the best method that gives a proper atmosphere to do the confessing. This is especially so when you tie it with Jesus giving authority to the apostles to forgive sin.

How then is the best way to confess your sin other than confession?

As far as the church aspect; if I see a person in the church sinning inside or outside of the church, then you would go to them. .

Theoretically yes. But how practical is that? People like to mind their own business and that is true to Christians too. Even if one wants to do that the question remains whether he is trained sufficiently to do it without any bad fallout. We see this kind of things happens in community of Christians and correction is filled with problems and messy consequence between the person who corrects and the correctee.

You still need a proper confessional where the roles played by the players are clear.

In this particular passage, many people believe the elder coming over to anoint with oil to heal the sick is a physical sickness, but it is a spiritual sickness or actually weakness caused by sin. I fail to see how this remotely relates to a confessional booth; partly because the priest is not scriptural; especially to the order of Melchizedek; Hebrews makes the comparison and contrast, the one contrast that should be glaring is that one of the differences between the levitical priesthood and of Melchizedek is that the Levictical priests kept dying, like your priests, while the other is perpetual, never dies, which is why it is called superior and why it refers only to Jesus because He is the only true Priest who never dies. Other than that the only other priesthood in the NT is the royal priesthood of believers or saints.

Maybe you look in the wrong place, Masters Servant. The office of the apostles never cease simply because the work of Christ does not.

But that is your religion and what you believe Hebrews teaches; i disagree and would never call anyone “Father” except God and would never recognize anyone as priest in the sense that your religion teaches; i would consider myself more qualified as a priest in my “religion”", which is my personal relation ship with the only High Priest, Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. That is my believe and my knowledge of Scripture as taught by the guiding of the Holy Spirit as He promised. .

You are deluding yourself if you could not call anyone father. You are scripturally not right either as Paul called himself a spiritual father to his disciples. I think the idea of not calling anyone father other than God is too simplistically wrong and immature. Father is just a term to address people like when you call them sir, uncle or my lord depends on the case as they may be. Nobody in their right mind would think that he is God just because we address him as father.

I call a priest father and I believe it is taught by the guiding of the Holy Spirit as he promised and how to understand the scripture correctly. And I believe that I am right and know that the Holy Spirit is with me.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

P.S. MS, if you use the first link I gave you, the article tells the history of Confession.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Maybe you can refresh me on what the Word of God says about this.

Read Hebrews 7, 8 & 9 carefully; you will not find a priest in the sense used by some religions including your own nor the writers of the NT; otherwise if you cannot comprehend Hebrews, the consider that the tabernacle built by “human hands” is done away with. S based on that a formal priesthood soe not exist, the the confessional also falls, but this is my understanding of the Word of God and you have a different one; one of us is correct and the other is incorrect.

can understand why you disagree with the theological aspect of confession to a confessor. I heard Protestants view on this quite clearly. Protestants stance is to confess directly to God and not to any man while Catholicism has the Sacrament of Penance. I will not go into that unless you want to – for further clarification.

The Bible tells us when we sin against God we are to confess our sins and ask for forgiveness; knowing they are already forgiven, but is give glory to God in that as children of God we recognize His holiness and give reverence and respect to Him. No different than when my son sins against me and comes and asks for forgiveness; he was already forgiven because he is my child, but it demonstrates he recognizes wrongdoing against me and the apology shows respect for me. The Bible teaches us to confess our sins to each other for similar reasons; also should be noted that when one sins against a brother or sister, then we are obligated to admit our mistakes and ask them for forgiveness and also to God, for both are offended.

I really don’t know whether it is about giving second chance to priests who commit pedophilia or not. I really don’t know. We may be Catholics but we are not privy to the process of how the decision is made. My guess as I had mentioned is that the sin is spiritual in nature and the solution is spiritual too. Mind you, there were culprit priests who were excommunicated – so it depends on the individual situation.

This is a difficult decision for you? So much for morals and empathy for justice; I am not your judge, but I would not want to face the judge who determines that this is wholly wrong an one is indifferent to it; just my opinion and I cannot dismiss you opinion for you have a right to it; i justdisagree and believe God does to.

I think you are in error here. The priest certainly does something during a confession. Why we should ask him to make a police report based on what he hears during confession is rather puzzling knowing the nature of the Sacrament.

A question that needs to be asked is: How does criminals get caught? The probability of them getting caught should be the same regardless whether they are Catholic priests, Catholics or non-Catholics who do not go for confession. We are talking about a subject which is purely secular.

It is never easy to catch a pedophile and they happen everywhere but they can be caught nevertheless. If you we are talking about priests – what makes him different from a kindergarten teacher who commits the same crime? What about the victims themselves and their parents? All of them can play a part in bringing the culprit to secular justice.
At best this is personal opinion and interpolation and one is entitled to it.
Thanks. Glad I can help but you can always get other opinion of course.

God bless.

No further comment, but your understanding confirms my understanding, which is all I really wanted to confirm…thanks again.

 

[Masters_Servant]

You are deluding yourself if you could not call anyone father. You are scripturally not right either as Paul called himself a spiritual father to his disciples. I think the idea of not calling anyone father other than God is too simplistically wrong and immature. Father is just a term to address people like when you call them sir, uncle or my lord depends on the case as they may be. Nobody in their right mind would think that he is God just because we address him as father.

I call a priest father and I believe it is taught by the guiding of the Holy Spirit as he promised and how to understand the scripture correctly. And I believe that I am right and know that the Holy Spirit is with me.

It is you that is both incorrect as to what I said and about what God teaches via Jesus Himself. Jesus is speaking in the Spiritual aspect, not the carnal aspect. So to call my biological dad, father is not an issue in Scripture, but to call a Spiritual , yet carnal, leader Father is contrary to Jesus and to Paul; you need to carefully look at what Paul said and in what context and you should see he is in obedience to the command; but you my be spiritually appraised and not see it or perhaps you believe that Paul contradicted Jesus? only you know what you believe; but I believe Jesus and the context in which He made the statement is also obvious; just as Paul’s was.

Do you consider yourself as being fully aware of the Gospel? That man is a sinner and is unable to reconcile nor do anything righteous to earn one’s salvation; it is a gift of God. The sinner needs a Savior and God being rich in Mercy and grace sent His so to atone for the sins of those who accept the gospel as by grace, through faith in Christ or sacraments? Meaning I realize I have sinned against the Creator and when i see myself; I see myself as He saw me before Jesus righteousness was imputed to me for my justification; a filthy wretched man that needed help. you may not agree with my understanding, but I assume if someone asked you, what must I do to receive eternal salvation you have an answer based on Scripture and I guess Tradition???

 

[Ignatius]

Where would the line be drawn differentiating between an apostle from a disciple?

Holy Scripture tells us that Christ chose 12 from His desciples and He called them Apostles. Jesus chose them and that is sufficient.

Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Luk 6:14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
Luk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot

 

[Reuben_J]

Read Hebrews 7, 8 & 9 carefully; you will not find a priest in the sense used by some religions including your own nor the writers of the NT; otherwise if you cannot comprehend Hebrews, the consider that the tabernacle built by “human hands” is done away with. S based on that a formal priesthood soe not exist, the the confessional also falls, but this is my understanding of the Word of God and you have a different one; one of us is correct and the other is incorrect.

Thanks for obliging.

Priesthood is nothing new. Judaism has them and we have our root in them, don’t we? Yes, we are all royal priests as we are all little Jesus but ordained priests do have a role and duty to perform. This will always be our difference so I will let it go.

It is you that is both incorrect as to what I said and about what God teaches via Jesus Himself. Jesus is speaking in the Spiritual aspect, not the carnal aspect. So to call my biological dad, father is not an issue in Scripture, but to call a Spiritual , yet carnal, leader Father is contrary to Jesus and to Paul; you need to carefully look at what Paul said and in what context and you should see he is in obedience to the command; but you my be spiritually appraised and not see it or perhaps you believe that Paul contradicted Jesus? only you know what you believe; but I believe Jesus and the context in which He made the statement is also obvious; just as Paul’s was.

Mt 23: 8"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

To me these verses prohibit calling anyone Rabbi, father or teacher only if the intention is to elevate them to the position of God or Christ and above you and that they lord it over you. It is associated with pride and hypocrisy on the part of the persons concerned (the Pharisees).

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

1 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord

Calling a Catholic priest father is not elevating him to the position of God or that he lords it over us. It is because he is a teacher and a provider of the faith. I have no problem calling a Protestant pastor father if that’s how he is to be addressed and I know that it does not mean that he is God or Christ.

In any case the word Rabbi, father and teacher are still used and those who use them are not confused that they are to mean Master who lords it over them, or Father in heaven or the teacher Jesus.

If I am to meet Abraham face to face today I probably would call him father rather than calling him Mr.Abraham. And there is no way that I consider him as God.

Romans 4:12
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

You would probably have no problem using the word ‘your lordship’, ‘your grace’ and ‘your holiness’ for there is no mention of prohibiting them in the scripture. But these are how priests are called when they are promoted to Bishop, Archbishop or even the Pope respectively.

Do you consider yourself as being fully aware of the Gospel? That man is a sinner and is unable to reconcile nor do anything righteous to earn one’s salvation; it is a gift of God. The sinner needs a Savior and God being rich in Mercy and grace sent His so to atone for the sins of those who accept the gospel as by grace, through faith in Christ or sacraments? Meaning I realize I have sinned against the Creator and when i see myself; I see myself as He saw me before Jesus righteousness was imputed to me for my justification; a filthy wretched man that needed help. you may not agree with my understanding, but I assume if someone asked you, what must I do to receive eternal salvation you have an answer based on Scripture and I guess Tradition???

When my Father in heaven sees me, he sees me lovingly as his precious child, beautiful but stained by my sins that I can hardly look like the creature he once created which is in the likeness of his image. But when I believe in Jesus, that stain is washed clean by the blood of the Lamb that was shed on the cross and now I look like the original creation I was, in his image. God does not cover my iniquity and that I am still filthy underneath. He removes the filth so that he sees me as I really was.

Thus I receive eternal salvation when I profess and believe that Jesus is the Christ and live according to his ways.