What makes a Christian?

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

This is not a thread on infant baptism. You can’t stick to the topic because of the implications it has with other doctrines you hold to. That is the problem with your position. Either way, you still miss the point. The Jews circumcised after 8 days. The parent had faith for the child. It is the same thing here. And regardless of your view of infant baptism, your explanations of what baptism does are absolutely lacking.

Actually that verse is in John. And as for the Greek argument, that’s just silly. You could work at McDonald’s. I’m sure you’re qualified. Why don’t you?

AHHHH. This seems to be a common strategy amongst you and a couple of other Protestants over here. When you get into trouble, cannot refute a specific verse, simply restate one of your theses, and hopefully nobody will notice. Well, I noticed. This paragraph is your response to my post? You have not done anything to refute my point, you have just replied with your opinion. Furthermore, your opinion does not even attempt to address what the verse I used actually says from your view. Again, you just reply with your thesis.

Oh really? I thought you believed justification was a one time event? This has the “washing” preceding the sanctification, and the sanctification preceding the justification. How can that make sense with your explanation that these are already believers? You’re not being very consistent.

I think I recall you saying that, I just don’t recall ever seeing any proof. I have pointed out your tactic of retreating to your thesis when you cannot mount a response. I suggest you change that for the future. If you don’t, it says one of two things about you. 1) You don’t realize you’re doing it or 2) You don’t care (which is dishonest). I want to believe in the good of you, so I will assume number 1. I think you are an honest and good Christian man, but I also think you are trying to hold on to your views of Scripture despite not being able to make a reasonable argument to support them. I look forward to your next response.

NOT MAKING A REASONABLE ARGUMENT!!!

I showed you what makes a Christian which was the original question. It was taken directly from the three times that the word itself was used in Scripture!!! The disciples are called Christians, Paul is a Christian and Agrippa doesn’t want to be, Peter says don’t be ashamed as a Christian (17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?) and says again we obey the gospel of God. My proof for the question that started this thread is right there.

As far as baptism goes, we’ve been down this road, if you want to look at what I’ve said look at some of my past posts from way back when I first started on this board. I am not wasting my time to continually run in circles with the same verses and arguments that I used in the past. I also don’t feel like wasting your time as you’ve already answered those exact questions (probably from me and tons of other people).

As far as working at McDonald’s; can I take your order?

 

[JSmitty2005]

JPete79,
Hello there. Long time no talk. Anyways, baptism *was * part of my original question if you read my first post. Also, we’re Catholic. Appealing to Scripture alone just doesn’t cut it here, sorry.

-Jon

 

[Elzee]

jpete79:

As far as working at McDonald’s; can I take your order?

Maybe a Happy Meal is in order at this particular juncture?

 

[jpete79]

JSmitty2005:

JPete79,
Hello there. Long time no talk. Anyways, baptism *was * part of my original question if you read my first post. Also, we’re Catholic. Appealing to Scripture alone just doesn’t cut it here, sorry.

-Jon

Jon:

Baptism was part of the original question, but the three verses from the Bible where the word Christian are explicitly used talk about discipleship and obedience; not baptism. Because of that I felt it was unneeded to address it from a Biblical standpoint.

Also
“How can I show biblically that through baptism we are made members of the Church?”

That was your original question, I figured Scripturally and Biblically were synonomous, if I was wrong I apologize. But, I also thought that the Bible and Sacred Tradition were to walk hand in hand. If the Bible says that Christians are disciples, shouldnt’ Tradition just confirm that?

Also, I would venture that my argument is probably similar to what your Protestant friend would say. So whether you accept it or not, at least you know where he’s coming from.

God Bless and I hope all has been well for you.

Sincerely,
Jim

 

[Mickey]

JSmitty2005:

How can I show biblically that through baptism we are made members of the Church?

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

 

[JSmitty2005]

jpete79:

Baptism was part of the original question, but the three verses from the Bible where the word Christian are explicitly used talk about discipleship and obedience; not baptism. Because of that I felt it was unneeded to address it from a Biblical standpoint.

The verses that you quote refer to people that are already Christians. They do not address the actual initiation into the Church. Maybe I wasn’t clear in my question. I wasn’t asking what makes someone a good Christian or a *faithful * Christian. I was asking how we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. I think someone else already said this, but the first thing that the apostles were commanded to do was to baptize. Because of this, we can assume that these people that are referred to as “Christians” had already been baptized. Also, circumcision prefigures baptism and there was no consent from the individual to be circumsized.

jpete79:

I also thought that the Bible and Sacred Tradition were to walk hand in hand. If the Bible says that Christians are disciples, shouldnt’ Tradition just confirm that?

Tradition does confirm what Christians *should * do. Tradition also confirms that we first *become * Christians through baptism. And, you’re right, I did ask for a sola scriptura answer, I forgot that.

-Jon

 

[Mickey]

jpete79:

Baptism was part of the original question, but the three verses from the Bible where the word Christian are explicitly used talk about discipleship and obedience; not baptism.

Here is where discipleship and obedience tie in with baptism:

Acts 2:36-44

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
And all who believed were together and had all things in common;

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mickey:

Here is where discipleship and obedience tie in with baptism:

Acts 2:36-44

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
And all who believed were together and had all things in common;

Interesting, they “devoted themselves…to the breaking of bread.”

 

[JSmitty2005]

I think it really comes down to Romans 6:3 which says that we were “baptized into Christ.”

 

[Mickey]

JSmitty2005:

I think it really comes down to Romans 6:3 which says that we were “baptized into Christ.”

Romans 6:3
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

 

[jpete79]

JSmitty2005:

The verses that you quote refer to people that are already Christians. They do not address the actual initiation into the Church. Maybe I wasn’t clear in my question. I wasn’t asking what makes someone a good Christian or a *faithful * Christian. I was asking how we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. I think someone else already said this, but the first thing that the apostles were commanded to do was to baptize. Because of this, we can assume that these people that are referred to as “Christians” had already been baptized. Also, circumcision prefigures baptism and there was no consent from the individual to be circumsized.

Tradition does confirm what Christians *should * do. Tradition also confirms that we first *become * Christians through baptism. And, you’re right, I did ask for a sola scriptura answer, I forgot that.

-Jon

Jon:

Maybe this is for another thread but I will ask it and see what you think.

At what point did baptism become the New Testament version of circumcision? John the Baptist did not baptize infants, Christ was not baptized as an infant, most of the times the word baptize is used it has either repent or believe associated with it…

If a disciple is meant to indeed follow Christ’s example and imitate him (which is explicit in Luke) then that person would be baptized at an older age. If parents wanted their children to imitate Christ shouldn’t they want their children doing the same?

Just a thought…

 

[jpete79]

Mickey:

Here is where discipleship and obedience tie in with baptism:

Acts 2:36-44

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
And all who believed were together and had all things in common;

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Interesting that it says be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and what’s that word before that REPENT.

The promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off. This promise doesn’t mean that because I’m a Christian my children and those who are far off will be forgiven their sins. It means that the full promise is offered to them if they also repent and are baptized. This implies no such thing as an infant baptism it does show obedience though.

And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
And all who believed were together and had all things in common;

I’m not getting into the subject of the Eucharist on this thread, I will say that both Protestants and Catholics break the bread. Again, obedience is shown.

 

[Mickey]

jpete79:

most of the times the word baptize is used it has either repent or believe associated with it…

Most of the time, adults were being converted to Christianity.

jpete79:

If a disciple is meant to indeed follow Christ’s example and imitate him (which is explicit in Luke) then that person would be baptized at an older age.

Christ was baptized to mark the start of His earthly ministry, not to dictate the age an individual should be baptized. By your reasoning, everyone should wait until about the age 30!

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me”. He would never deny the little ones the blessing of holy baptism.

I could recite all the Scripture that implicitly supports infant baptism as well as multiple writings from Sacred Tradition. And you could recite all the Scripture that you think implicitly supports only “believer’s baptism”. But this simple Scriptural verse says it all:

Luke 1:41

And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist recognized the presence of Jesus while still in the womb! If I was a sola Scriptura Christian, this verse alone would be enough to convince me that infants can and should be baptized without the necessity to wait for some type of “age of reason”.

P.S–That’s also a good verse to bring to the attention of the abortion supporters.

 

[Mickey]

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Interesting that it says be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and what’s that word before that REPENT.

Read the article I linked you to earlier. It will address all of your protestant bias toward the 2000 year old practice of infant baptism.
You must keep in mind that beleiver’s baptism was invented in maybe the 1700’s? If I’m not mistaken, Luther and Calvin believed in infant baptism. Oh well, I’m not the one who will convince you otherwise–that’s up to the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
Mickey

 

[jpete79]

Mickey:

Most of the time, adults were being converted to Christianity.

I believe this is the biggest difference in our theology (other than the authority of Scripture). The reason I say this is because a Christian is something that someone has to do personally. Someone can be a part of a Christian family but unless he/she believes in Christ, he/she isn’t Christian.

I guess what I mean is that, every person is a fallen sinner. Every man is unrighteous. There is no one righteous not even one. This is why EVERYONE who comes to Christ has to do it on their own and personally. He who believes in Him will inherit eternal life. He who denies himself and carries my cross (which Christ said).

Another thing…I am not saying that someone who doesn’t have the capacity to know God is doomed. God is loving. I believe that a child that can’t believe in God will return to God in accordance to HIS MERCY not whether or not parents have that child baptized.

Also, I am not saying that we need to wait until age 30 but I do think that we should wait until we are old enough to understand what a commitment is about. I was baptized only 3 years ago. Most of my friends were baptized anywhere from 17-25.

Also, notice that the Spirit was in Elizabeth. John jumped for joy but it was her that received the Holy Spirit.

As for abortion, I like Psalm 139 myself. He knew David in the womb.

 

[jpete79]

Mickey:

Read the article I linked you to earlier. It will address all of your protestant bias toward the 2000 year old practice of infant baptism.
You must keep in mind that beleiver’s baptism was invented in maybe the 1700’s? If I’m not mistaken, Luther and Calvin believed in infant baptism. Oh well, I’m not the one who will convince you otherwise–that’s up to the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
Mickey

I didn’t notice a link anywhere…did I miss it?

 

[Mickey]

jpete79:

I didn’t notice a link anywhere…did I miss it?

Post # 19.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

Mickey:

Most of the time, adults were being converted to Christianity.

I believe this is the biggest difference in our theology (other than the authority of Scripture). The reason I say this is because a Christian is something that someone has to do personally. Someone can be a part of a Christian family but unless he/she believes in Christ, he/she isn’t Christian.

Where do you find this distinction in Scripture JPete?

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

Where do you find this distinction in Scripture JPete?

That is the purpose of this thread. A Christian is a follower or disciple of Christ. That’s how they were identified at Antioch when the word was first used.

Can you be a follower or disciple without the capacity for obedience? Can you follow someone you don’t know? Where does the Bible say that salvation is for people who don’t believe as long as their family does?

By the way…thanks for the link Mickey, I’ll look at it later.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

NOT MAKING A REASONABLE ARGUMENT!!!

I showed you what makes a Christian which was the original question. It was taken directly from the three times that the word itself was used in Scripture!!! The disciples are called Christians, Paul is a Christian and Agrippa doesn’t want to be, Peter says don’t be ashamed as a Christian (17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?) and says again we obey the gospel of God. My proof for the question that started this thread is right there.

No, you showed part of what it takes to be a Christian. Nowhere in any of those verses does it say “This alone makes you a Christian”. We must read those verses in the greater context of Scripture, which includes the verses that we have cited as well. You seem to want to ignore them.

jpete79:

As far as baptism goes, we’ve been down this road, if you want to look at what I’ve said look at some of my past posts from way back when I first started on this board. I am not wasting my time to continually run in circles with the same verses and arguments that I used in the past. I also don’t feel like wasting your time as you’ve already answered those exact questions (probably from me and tons of other people).

As far as working at McDonald’s; can I take your order?

Whoa there brother! Take it easy. I have not been down this road with you. Maybe there is some baggage from other conversations you have had, but how was I to know that? I can respect your request, but certainly it was reasonable for me to expect more than you gave me. Finally, where does that leave us, if we both appeal to Scripture but just disagree? Who is right? I guess it all comes back to authority again. And yes, I will have a double quarter pounder meal, supersized.