What makes a Christian?

[Mickey]

jpete79:

Also, notice that the Spirit was in Elizabeth. John jumped for joy but it was her that received the Holy Spirit.

So John has to wait?

jpete79:

Also, I am not saying that we need to wait until age 30 but I do think that we should wait until we are old enough to understand what a commitment is about. I was baptized only 3 years ago. Most of my friends were baptized anywhere from 17-25.

There are many differences, but there are many more similarities to our theology. I soon will have a new baby. And you can bet I will baptize that child by the eighth day according to Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Tradition. My wife and I will raise and teach the child according to Christian morals and values. In the Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Tradition, the infant is baptized, chrismated, and receives first Holy Communion as an infant. Have you ever seen the look of peace and tranquility on an infants face when they receive the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? A three year old in our Church was asked one time after Communion what they had just received and they answered, “Jesus.” I could go on to tell you many stories of children barely old enough to talk who had faith in Christ **beyond **reason.
The “age of reason” argument from the revisionists, will never be able to hold water in my eyes.
I just can’t see Christ saying something like, “don’t you dare baptize those children until they are old enough to know who I am”.
Like psalm 139 says, He knew them in the womb.

Blessings to you on your journey,
Mickey

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

No, you showed part of what it takes to be a Christian. Nowhere in any of those verses does it say “This alone makes you a Christian”. We must read those verses in the greater context of Scripture, which includes the verses that we have cited as well. You seem to want to ignore them.

Whoa there brother! Take it easy. I have not been down this road with you. Maybe there is some baggage from other conversations you have had, but how was I to know that? I can respect your request, but certainly it was reasonable for me to expect more than you gave me. Finally, where does that leave us, if we both appeal to Scripture but just disagree? Who is right? I guess it all comes back to authority again. And yes, I will have a double quarter pounder meal, supersized.

Only a double quarter pounder meal…I know I’d probably add a 20 piece nuggets to that (those always have been my fav)

Anyways, I thought we did talk about this topic. I’m sorry if we haven’t. However, I’m sure you have talked about this topic with other resident Protestants on these boards, so I figured I wouldn’t have us writing all the same arguments all over again (I don’t remember the threads that I initially posted on but if you look at my post history you should find it).

Well, my workday is over. Have a wonderful night Red and God Bless

(I really don’t work at McDonalds but at an engineering company, at least until I head to Africa late this year)

 

[Mickey]

** **St Hippolytus

Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 A.D.215]).

 

[JSmitty2005]

** **St Hippolytus

Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 A.D.215]).

Just to let you know, JPete79, the line of discipleship here goes straight back to Christ. St. Hippolytus was a disciple of St. Irenaeus. St. Irenaeus was a disciple of St. Polycarp. St. Polycarp was a disciple of St. John. And, obviously, St. John was a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Jesus → John → Polycarp → Irenaeus → Hippolytus

 

[JSmitty2005]

jpete79:

At what point did baptism become the New Testament version of circumcision?

“Clearly, if circumcision was a literal sign, we must estimate baptism to be the same. For the apostle, in the second chapter of Colossians, makes neither more spiritual than the other. For he says that we were circumcised in Christ not by a circumcision made with hands, when we laid aside the body of sin which dwelt in our flesh. This he calls the ‘circumcision of Christ’ [Col. 2:11]. Afterward, to explain this statement, he adds that in baptism we were ‘buried in Christ’ [Col 2:12]. What do these words mean, except that the fulfillment and truth of baptism are also the truth and fulfillment of circumcision, since they signify one and the same thing? For he is striving to demonstrate that baptism is for the Christians what circumcision previously was for the Jews.”
-John Calvin (I think so anyways, you’ll have to check out the link below to make sure I understood correctly.)

---

“In Acts 16:15,33, 18:8 (cf. 11:14), and 1 Corinthians 1:16 it is stated that an individual and his whole household were baptized. It would be hard to say this involved no small children. Paul in Colossians 2:11-13 makes a connection between baptism and circumcision. Israel was the church before Christ (Acts 7:38, Romans 9:4). Circumcision, given to 8-day old boys, was the seal of the covenant God made with Abraham, which applies to us also (Galatians 3:14,29). It was a sign of repentance and future faith (Romans 4:11). Infants were just as much a part of the covenant as adults (Genesis 17:7, Deuteronomy 29:10-12, cf. Matthew 19:14). Likewise, baptism is the seal of the New Covenant in Christ. It signifies cleansing from sin, just as circumcision did (Deuteronomy 10:16, 30:6, Jeremiah 4:4, 9:25, Romans 2:28-9, Philippians 3:3). Infants are wholly saved by God’s grace just as adults are, only apart from their rational and willful consent. Their parents act in their behalf.”

I got both of those excerpts from: ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ328.HTM

 

[JSmitty2005]

JPete79, if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that faith must be had as a prerequisite for baptism. Is this true? If so, I think we agree more than it may appear. The Church teaches that those who are able to believe and profess their faith should do so prior to baptism. Now, you probably feel that the individual themselves must have faith in order for Christ to heal them in baptism. However, this does not add up biblically. In Matthew 8:13, the centurion’s servant was healed because of the centurion’s faith. No one knows whether or not this servant was a Christian, but Christ healed him on the basis of the centurion’s faith. Another example of Christ healing someone because of the faith of someone else is found in Matthew 9:2,6 where the paralytic is healed because of his friends’ faith. As Catholics, we believe that the faith of the parents suffices as well. As was quoted earlier: “Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.” (Hippolytus)

Gregory of Nazianz
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
“By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

 

[trogiah]

Elzee:

Hmmm, but some non-Christians can follow Christ unknowingly, correct? A woman I know is Hindu and in many respects lives a more Christ-like life than I do. I’ve always wondered…since we become ‘children of God’ through baptism (and faith if we are old enough), is this woman considered a ‘child of God’? Is she partaking of the ‘divine nature’?

Yes to all questions.

As it is also written

“Many will come from the East and the West and find a place at God’s table while some of the natural heirs will be driven out”

So in this case, if you would follow Christ, perhaps you should follow this Hindu woman, at least some of the way

peace
Jim

 

[trogiah]

“He who is seperated from the body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may otherwise seem, will not be saved.”

Pope Gregory XVI “Perlatum Ad Nos”

Jesus seems to think otherwise

peace
-Jim

 

[JSmitty2005]

trogiah:

Jesus seems to think otherwise

Is that so? “The churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal.” -St. Augustine

This idea is easily backed up by Christ’s words in the Scriptures that unless you are born again of water and spirit and unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you cannot have eternal life.

 

[JSmitty2005]

“Many will come from the East and the West and find a place at God’s table while some of the natural heirs will be driven out”

Is this a Bible verse? If so, where is it found?

 

[hurst]

trogiah:

Originally Posted by Elzee
Hmmm, but some non-Christians can follow Christ unknowingly, correct? A woman I know is Hindu and in many respects lives a more Christ-like life than I do. I’ve always wondered…since we become ‘children of God’ through baptism (and faith if we are old enough), is this woman considered a ‘child of God’? Is she partaking of the ‘divine nature’?

Yes to all questions.

This doesn’t make sense. Can a Hindu woman, a pagan worshipping multiple “gods”, be the same as a baptized Christian partaking of the divine nature? No!

The best we can say is that this woman is doing morally good actions apart from the life of God. The Church teaches that it does not take faith or grace in order to do moral good. At the same time, those morally good actions will not be sufficient for eternal life.

It requires faith - the Christian Faith, in order to be just before God. “The just man shall walk by faith”. And we receive this Faith in baptism. And we are thus a child of God. (Nevermind that all people are children of God in a general sense, since we are all in His image).

However, a non-baptized person who follows their conscience uprightly is disposed to receiving grace from God, and might very well end up in heaven by God’s mercy at the moment of their death. But that doesn’t mean they had the life of grace before that mercy.

trogiah:

As it is also written

“Many will come from the East and the West and find a place at God’s table while some of the natural heirs will be driven out”

That is from here:

Matthew 8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This was mainly indicating that the Jews, who were the chosen people, were going to be rejected since they did not recognize the Messiah and believe in Him. The Gentiles would take their place.

But it can just as well refer to the fact that a baptised person not following their conscience loses their grace, and will end up in hell if they don’t repent, even though they did have the life of grace early on.

hurst

 

[trogiah]

JSmitty2005:

Is that so? “The churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal.” -St. Augustine

This idea is easily backed up by Christ’s words in the Scriptures that unless you are born again of water and spirit and unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you cannot have eternal life.

What does it mean to"eat His flesh and drink His blood?’

Consider the scripture

"the disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat.”
But he said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”

So the disciples said to one another, “Could someone have brought him something to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and to finish his work.”"

And consider a later scripture
“Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.”

We feed on Chist most literally when we follow his example and keep his commandment to love one another as he has loved us.

There is a fullness of life that is gained by full and free participation in the sacraments but the foundation of that life is found in loving justice and acting uprightly. The Hindu woman, and any other person who lives a life of righteousness, will likely by happy to accept the fullness of Christian life as soon as they see in the examples of Christians what that life should really be. The best we can do for others as well as for ourselves is to live that example as best we can.

peace.

Jim

 

[trogiah]

hurst:

This doesn’t make sense. Can a Hindu woman, a pagan worshipping multiple “gods”, be the same as a baptized Christian partaking of the divine nature? No!

I would suggest that, whatever a person may call themself, they are not a worshipper of false gods if they keep God’s commandments.
As the first pope discovers

"Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, "In truth, I see that God shows no partiality.
Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.

hurst:

That is from here:

Matthew 8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

hurst

Also from the 13th chapter of Luke

“And people will come from the east and the west and from the north and the south and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.”

peace
Jim

 

[JSmitty2005]

trogiah:

Also from the 13th chapter of Luke

“And people will come from the east and the west and from the north and the south and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.”

I get the impression that this means that Gentiles will be open to God’s covenant now.

 

[NonDenom]

This seems pretty clear that more is required than just professing your faith:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Catholic Biblical Association (Great Britian). (Mt 28:19).

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:5).

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (Ro 6:4).

And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Ac 2:38).

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ (Ac 22:16).

Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with all his household; and many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. (Ac 18:8).

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.(Eph 4:4).

Hi
Here is another scripture that most people don’t use, but I thinks it points out very well the need for Baptism.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Thanks.
In Him and Only Him.

 

[Redbandito]

hurst:

The best we can say is that this woman is doing morally good actions apart from the life of God. The Church teaches that it does not take faith or grace in order to do moral good. At the same time, those morally good actions will not be sufficient for eternal life.

Are you sure about that? Where does the Church teach this? All good comes from God’s grace. Just not all of it comes from sanctifying grace.

 

[Redbandito]

trogiah:

What does it mean to"eat His flesh and drink His blood?’

Consider the scripture

"the disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat.”
But he said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”

So the disciples said to one another, “Could someone have brought him something to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and to finish his work.”"

And consider a later scripture
“Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.”

We feed on Chist most literally when we follow his example and keep his commandment to love one another as he has loved us.

There is a fullness of life that is gained by full and free participation in the sacraments but the foundation of that life is found in loving justice and acting uprightly. The Hindu woman, and any other person who lives a life of righteousness, will likely by happy to accept the fullness of Christian life as soon as they see in the examples of Christians what that life should really be. The best we can do for others as well as for ourselves is to live that example as best we can.

peace.

Jim

That is not a historically accurate interpretation of John 6. It was not believed by the Church for 1500 years, nor was it believed by Luther. The Radical Reformists are the ones that introduced this line of exegesis. Are you telling me that Christians misunderstood these Scriptures for 1500-1600 years? If so, how arrogant.

 

[hurst]

Redbandito:

Originally Posted by hurst
The best we can say is that this woman is doing morally good actions apart from the life of God. The Church teaches that it does not take faith or grace in order to do moral good. At the same time, those morally good actions will not be sufficient for eternal life.

Are you sure about that? Where does the Church teach this? All good comes from God’s grace. Just not all of it comes from sanctifying grace.

There was a long thread about this a month or two ago.
Faithless people doing good works equivalent to those “God works through Christians”?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=83196&page=1&pp=100

Grace is needed for acts of the supernatural order,

1. 
   *] For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratis elevans) is absolutely necessary (De fide)
   *] Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation (De fide)
   *] The justified also require actual grace for the performance of salutary acts (Sent. communis)
   *] Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification (De fide)
   *] The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God (De fide)
   
   … but human nature has the capacity to act well:
   1. 
      *] Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths (De fide)
      *] For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required (De fide)
      *] The Grace of Faith is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action (Sent. certa)
      *] Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action (Sent. certa)
      
      Ref: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, pp.229-235
      
      hurst