What makes a good choir?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Podo2004
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
We have no choir loft, nor will we be able to afford one in the foreseable future. I like sitting off to the side. It is blessing to be feel like your a part of the Mass. I do not concentrate on the Mass as well if I sit near the back, so I am glad I am not in a loft.

What makes a good choir in our church is dedicated, solid Catholics. We are only 6-7 strong so dedication is important.

I measure success by how well the congregation participates in the Mass.
 
40.png
pnewton:
We have no choir loft, nor will we be able to afford one in the foreseable future. I like sitting off to the side. It is blessing to be feel like your a part of the Mass. I do not concentrate on the Mass as well if I sit near the back, so I am glad I am not in a loft.

What makes a good choir in our church is dedicated, solid Catholics. We are only 6-7 strong so dedication is important.

I measure success by how well the congregation participates in the Mass.
Click to expand...
Um, we are a part of the Mass… Jesus isn’t offered for just a few people, he is offered for everyone present. So regardless of what we do we are ‘part of the Mass.’ That said, we musicians are not ordained ministers and must never infringe upon the sacred space that is to be used by the ordained during the Sacrifice. The reason why we’re not seeing choir lofts these days is because of the hideous flying saucer style churches that are being constructed. It’s very difficult and expensive to construct a choir loft for a circular building. Can’t anyone just follow the Church’s guidelines regarding Sacred architecture? Gee whiz!!!

You measure success by how well the congregation participates in the Mass? It is the role of the laity to unite their hearts with the heart of the priest acting In Persona Christi. You know what? I did not once feel ‘left out’ or as if I was ‘not participating’ when I attended Chant Masses at Gonzaga university. Most of the chants are too complex for the laity who know nothing about chant or Vatican notation to sing, and the skill demanded of the musicians for the sacred polyphony is not posessed by the average layperson. I was content just to sit and listen. The music moved me way more than fumbling with a book trying to learn some rock song I’d never heard before. Thinking a Mass is a ‘success’ based upon what external signs people give that they are participating is an EXTREMELY protestant notion. A Mass is a ‘success’ these days if there are no abuses present to render it invalid…
 
Absolutely, every one is part of the Mass. I was just said I feel more a part of the Mass when I sit closer. All choirs need to be understanding that many people do not sing for a variety of reasons. For example, saying, instead of singing, the “Our Father” permits all to be involved.
 
40.png
CatholicNerd:
First and foremost, a good Catholic choir must be comprised of good Catholics.
Click to expand...
I think that’s important too… at the Cathedral in my diocese, the music director hires some “ringers” to sing in the choir, or as cantors. They are professionals, who may or may not be practicing Catholic. The director feels that since this is the Cathedral, people expect to hear good music. Which I’m sure is true… but ideally it should be possible to get good singers who are also Catholic, right? Perhaps they won’t all be professional quality. But you can still find some really good people who are willing to volunteer their services and put forth the effort to learn the music.
 
[t really good choir is one that keeps the congregation focused on God and not themselves or any one individual in the group. They pick music that is prayerful and present it well. They pick music that encourages the congregation to sing.

Ours has had trouble with this for a while now.

Howdy,

I agree 👍 . A good choir keeps the congregation focused on GOD. They are not performers and they should be encouraging all the faithful to participate. The faithful participate by singing and responding. I hate the new songs. Songs that focus on WE and US, like God should be thankful that we showed up. :eek: . Also, I’m learning to beware of songs that say things like we’re eating the bread and wine :mad: We consume the precious Body and Blood.
I pray for all those who belong to non-apostolic churches- they must work very hard to dismiss the Catholic doctrines- for example, The Real Presence, the papacy, and the priesthood. And with such subtly these evils are creeping into the church :gopray2:

God Bless you,
Shan
 
40.png
pnewton:
Absolutely, every one is part of the Mass. I was just said I feel more a part of the Mass when I sit closer. All choirs need to be understanding that many people do not sing for a variety of reasons. For example, saying, instead of singing, the “Our Father” permits all to be involved.
Click to expand...
Hello Pnewton,

I can’t carry a tune. But to sing is to pray twice. God gave you you your voice- give it back to Him. You see, its not about beautiful voices, but humility. I’m a convert and I would love to learn to sing the ‘Pater Noster’ with no hand holding. I thank God for Holy Mother Church and the church building because it houses the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The lay faithful participate by responding and singing.

Have a great day!
Shan
 
“All these men were responsible for the music of the temple of the Lord – ALL OF THEM TRAINED AND SKILLED IN MUSIC FOR THE LORD.” 1 Ch 25.31. Just a note, as a musician: There is nothing to me more unholy that bad musicians. You can ‘want’ to sing/ play music for the Lord, but unless you have put the discipline in to make it GOOD, it is NOT reverential. Let’s say the Queen visits – wouldn’t you hire the best musicians you could, to honor her? Not just people who WANT to play for her and love her. That is simply not enough.

It is very common, at least here in LA, to hire musicians to at least fill key places, solos, and so forth. I have left churches because of mediocre music where no one seems to care. Having good boundaries, demanding excellence, order from chaos – these are all of the Lord.
 
bboop said:
“All these men were responsible for the music of the temple of the Lord – ALL OF THEM TRAINED AND SKILLED IN MUSIC FOR THE LORD.” 1 Ch 25.31. Just a note, as a musician: There is nothing to me more unholy that bad musicians. You can ‘want’ to sing/ play music for the Lord, but unless you have put the discipline in to make it GOOD, it is NOT reverential. Let’s say the Queen visits – wouldn’t you hire the best musicians you could, to honor her? Not just people who WANT to play for her and love her. That is simply not enough.

It is very common, at least here in LA, to hire musicians to at least fill key places, solos, and so forth. I have left churches because of mediocre music where no one seems to care. Having good boundaries, demanding excellence, order from chaos – these are all of the Lord./QUOT

bboop,

You’re right about being trained and skilled and part of that is knowing the difference between a Catholic hymn and a song. You could have the most beautiful voice, but to sing ‘On eagles wings’ , at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (even it were done by the Three Tenors and accompanied by Mozart) is sickening.
:banghead:
If the choir knows what it is all about everyone will participate, and I don’t think God would be offended. As a lay person, I can’t carry a tune nor is my voice strong enough to make a splash. Sister Faustina loved to sing out and she couldn’t sing either.

God Bless and have a great evening,
Shan :whistle:
Click to expand...
 
Unlike children who should be seen but not heard, the choir should be heard but not seen. And, if they can’t sing, they should be replaced by well done CDs. Theatrics such as applause should not be allowed and only music to supplement the Liturgy and the scriptural readings should be chosen. The organ should be the instrument of choice, and only on very special occasions, e.g. Easter Vigil, should be supplemented by royal instruments such as trumpets.
 
There seems to be as many opinions on what makes a good choir as what constitutes good music, and I’ve seen that go back and forth. Each parish is so individualized that only one familiar with a parish can judge what is best. If there is no choir loft, for example, that issue becomes moot. I have had Sundays when me and my wife are the only two to sing. We seldom have more than eight show up for choir. Sometimes the question must be asked, “Is there any one else willing to do the job” not "can I do a great job. Thank God for all the hard workers in our parishs that set their hand to the plow and their nose to the grindstone.
 
Warning: Venting Post

First of all, those involved in music for Mass is a Ministry. Thus the title ‘Music Ministry”, which is part of the Office Of Worship, which is in charge of all things involving Liturgical matters. Just as there are ministers of the Altar, Special Ministers to the Eucharist, etc. Each has its duties, each has its purpose in the Mass.

As a Minister of Music for a majority of my life, I can tell you from a Music Minister’s point of view, sometimes it’s a thankless job, but someone has to do it. We are criticized constantly about being too loud, not loud enough. Good singing, bad singing. Appropriates song, inappropriate song. Too much singing, not enough singing. Etc, etc, etc. And many of the complaints are from people who are unwilling or don’t want to be part of the choir. And don’t get me wrong, lectors get a lot of complaints also. Not the same ones, but just as scathing at times. And we wonder why someone disappears because of someone else thinks their opinion is a lot better than someone else who has stepped up to the podium, so to speak.

So, before you criticize the organist who can’t seem to get the notes right. Or the Cantor who can’t seem to lead the Assembly properly, or that the music isn’t to your liking or taste. Be aware that very few are willing to put themselves out there to serve God’s people in the best way they know how. Perhaps you might think of this, your Priest may have asked a very nice person, who has been playing the organ or piano for several years, and the Parish has been doing without an instrumentalist for a while because of whatever reason, the choir has been doing without, to fill in. Or take over the playing. And on the first Sunday this person plays nothing goes right. Choir is slightly off. Timing for starting the music is not synced. And every imaginable disaster you can think of happens. The last thing that person needs is for people to come up to them and be criticized. And the last thing they need to hear is, “Didn’t you practice with the choir?” That for sure will send that person right out the door to never be heard from again.

(con’t on next post)
 
(con’t from previous post)

We need to encourage our musicians and singers, not criticize every single nit picky thing you can think of. Many Parishes can’t afford to pay professional people to do the music for Mass, so most choirs are volunteers as my church is. Yes, some sing better than others, and I’d say 90 percent of the people in our choirs don’t read music. Yet they are willing to do something that no one wants or is willing to do. Yes, the choir practices. But as far as I know, there is only one person that’s perfect, and I’m not him.

Be grateful that those of you who do have a choir have one. Many are not so fortunate

Incidentally, I have a question for you: Do you support your choir with your voice by singing with them at the appropriate time? Make sure that the choir is not the only one singing, even though you don’t like what’s being sung.

And, Thanks pnewman.
 
Now that I’ve said my peace, here are some items of interest from the “General Instruction of the Roman Missal”:

Regarding the placement of the choir:
  1. The choir should be positioned with respect to the design of each church so as to make clearly evident its character as a part of the gathered community of the faithful fulfilling a specific function. The location should also assist the choir to exercise its function more easily and conveniently allow each choir member full, sacramental participation in the Mass.123
Regarding placement of instruments:
  1. The organ and other lawfully approved musical instruments are to be placed in an appropriate place so that they can sustain the singing of both the choir and the congregation and be heard with ease by all if they are played alone. It is appropriate that, before being put into liturgical use, the organ be blessed according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual.124
 
One more thing before I keep quiet, for a while anyway. 😃

Also from the G.I.R.M:

*The Importance of Singing

*39. The Christian faithful who gather together as one to await the Lord’s coming are instructed by the Apostle Paul to sing together psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs (cf. Col 3:16). Singing is the sign of the heart’s joy (cf. Acts 2:46). Thus Saint Augustine says rightly, "Singing is for one who loves."48 There is also the ancient proverb: “One who sings well prays twice.”
  1. Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of the people and abilities of each liturgical assembly. Although it is not always necessary (e.g., in weekday Masses) to sing all the texts that are of themselves meant to be sung, every care should be taken that singing by the ministers and the people is not absent in celebrations that occur on Sundays and on holy days of obligation.
In the choosing of the parts actually to be sung, however, preference should be given to those that are of greater importance and especially to those to be sung by the priest or the deacon or the lector, with the people responding, or by the priest and people together.49
  1. All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.50
Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.51
 
There have been many good, thoughtful responses in this thread, and I have enjoyed reading them.

As a SoBap, one of the things I have enjoyed has been directing and singing in choirs and singing solos and in ensembles, mostly contemporary music. I am going to miss that as I make my transition into the Catholic Church; there are some things that are best said by contemporary music.

However, I am in agreement with the traditional-minded that contemporary music does not belong in the setting of a Catholic Mass; even if the composition itself is contemporary, the style needs to be at least classical. Thus, as a composer of contemporary-style music, I am going to be out of a job in the Catholic Church. I’m not sure yet (I’ve never tried) whether I can write classical-style music or not.

In terms of choirs, my favorite in my admittedly very limited experience is the choir (and the setup) at EWTN. I do wish their choir was about twice as big, and that they would pay juuuuusssst a little more attention to intonation. But I am a major chant and ren-music fan, and if I could ever win admission into a choir like that, I would be happy!

Finally, let me set the record straight on one thing. One does not have to be able to carry a tune well to sing in a choir. One should, however, be able to unload it well 😛

DaveBj
 
HUGE choir geek here and I would like to hear some more Gregorian chanting. I love the traditional chants even before I became Catholic. Lucky me the Catholic Church has a monopoly on all the beautiful and reverent Sacred music. It was also a good way to minister to kids at our All-State and All-Region concerts back in HS…(no not bragging at all) We need more real bass’ and more pure toned tenors! A good choir can represent the bride of Christ. You have all different types of voices and parts but they all work together to form something very beautiful IF they are in tune with one another. God Bless
 
40.png
nucatholic:
HUGE choir geek here and I would like to hear some more Gregorian chanting. I love the traditional chants even before I became Catholic. Lucky me the Catholic Church has a monopoly on all the beautiful and reverent Sacred music. It was also a good way to minister to kids at our All-State and All-Region concerts back in HS…(no not bragging at all) We need more real bass’ and more pure toned tenors! A good choir can represent the bride of Christ. You have all different types of voices and parts but they all work together to form something very beautiful IF they are in tune with one another. God Bless
Click to expand...
I’m but a humble baritone. I can sing the chant well until it goes somewhere near high G or A, in which case I need to use falsetto and it’s obvious… hehe. The sad thing about it is that when I’m home, I’ve got the most flexible range of any male in the choir. Oy. My voice prof feels that I will eventually develop into a tenor (just started singing this year). Maybe by the end of next year… * O Lord, make me a real tenor * LOL
 
When I first started singing in the choir, I was a soprano.

Then, because there was a need, I moved to the alto section. My range runs from an “A” below middle C to the “E” above high C, that is, if I open up a whole lot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top