What makes a Mass invalid?

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Wouldn’t the same logic follow that if people could not get to a Sunday Mass because of long distances, they won’t be able to do the same for weekday Masses? Just saying.

We should be thankful that there is a ritual in place to allow people to gather and receive communion. That should be the focus.
The problem with Communion Services is that the idea is often abused.

I was part of a language-based “Community”. We had a chaplain who celebrated Mass for us on Sundays. People drove for miles to attend Mass in their language. I personally drove through at least 4 different parishes to get there. Many drove through more.

On Sundays when our Chaplain couldn’t be there and we couldn’t find another priest to celebrate in French, they would organize a Liturgy of the Word with Communion. The want for a Liturgy in your own language does not trump the obligation to attend Mass. My children and I would always attend Mass elsewhere on those weekends but most of the Community didn’t because they were never informed that the Liturgy did not fulfill their Sunday obligation.

Now I have a Canadian ritual book from the early days of the Sunday Services in the Absence of a priest and that book specifically says that it is more important for the community to gather as a community than to go to another parish for Mass. :bigyikes:
The Canadian ritual that is now in use makes it clear that these liturgies are not to be used on Sunday if the parishioners can attend Mass elsewhere. In our parish that is not an option. If there is no priest in town the next nearest parish is ~350 miles away.
 
These Communion Services are completely legitimate in circumstances when a priest is unavailable; it is a provision made by the bishop of the diocese for the pastoral care of those who would be adversely affected by the inability to provide Mass.
In actual fact they were not intended to be used for weekday Masses, and were only intended for use where there was no priest available to say Sunday Mass and it would not be practically possible for parishioners to travel to Mass in another parish.

If it is possible for a person to get in a car and drive an hour on Sunday to get to a Catholic church other than their own parish church, then there is not a good reason to hold a Eucharistic service. This may be the case for a remote African village that has no priest on Sunday, but hardly applies in the case of most European or American parishes.
 
In actual fact they were not intended to be used for weekday Masses, and were only intended for use where there was no priest available to say Sunday Mass and it would not be practically possible for parishioners to travel to Mass in another parish.

If it is possible for a person to get in a car and drive an hour on Sunday to get to a Catholic church other than their own parish church, then there is not a good reason to hold a Eucharistic service. This may be the case for a remote African village that has no priest on Sunday, but hardly applies in the case of most European or American parishes.
What you write is not correct. It’s assuredly not what I have lived in my own priestly life and ministry. There are, I gather, dioceses in the United States where the bishop has prohibited weekday Communion Services; that is his prerogative as the chief liturgist of his diocese. But that is not the case universally and certainly not with my own bishop and I have licitly used this provision to provide Communion Services on weekdays when I could not offer Holy Mass for perfectly valid reasons.

It is also wholly wrong for someone who is not a bishop to demand something that is more exacting than what diocesan bishops have determined is in the interests of their people. Mercifully, I have never met a member of the episcopate who would deem getting into a car and driving an hour to get to Mass as at all a reasonable expectation over and against providing a Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest.

Since I presume you are American, here is what was issued by your nation’s conference of bishops. The document distinguishes between Rite for Distributing Holy Communion Outside Mass with a Celebration of the Word, which is properly used on weekdays and Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of Priest which is to be used on Sundays and not on weekdays.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/frequently-asked-questions/weekday-celebrations-in-the-absence-of-a-priest.cfm

And so, as I referenced in my earlier post:
The proper ritual for the Liturgy of the Word with Distribution of Holy Communion is found in Holy Communion and Worship of the Eucharist Outside Mass. The specialized provisions of Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest are not appropriate to weekday celebrations.
In The Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest that was issued by the CDW

Paragraph 18 states:
Whenever and wherever Mass cannot be celebrated on Sunday, the first thing to be ascertained is whether the faithful can go to a church in a place nearby to participate there in the eucharistic mystery. At the present time this solution is to be recommended and to be retained where it is in effect; but it demands that the faithful, rightly imbued with a fuller understanding of the Sunday assembly, respond with good will to a new situation.
Paragraph 24 states:
It belongs to the diocesan bishop, after hearing the council of presbyters, to decide whether Sunday assemblies without the celebration of the eucharist should be held on a regular basis in his diocese. It belongs also to the bishop, after considering the place and persons involved, to set out both general and particular norms for such celebrations. These assemblies are therefore to be conducted only in virtue of their convocation by the bishop and only under the pastoral ministry of the pastor.
Which is where this decision should properly rest – and not with individual opinions or preferences.

The Diocese of Boise in the United States well expresses how these norms can be applied in the concrete as well as how what is normative may, according to the bishop’s decision, may need to be adjusted for pressing pastoral reasons:
*When the Eucharist is celebrated “in a place nearby,” parishioners may be asked to go there for Sunday Mass (Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, #18). However, if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop, it is not practical or possible for the community to participate in the celebration of Mass in a church nearby, the community should assemble for Sunday worship in their own community, under the leadership of the person the bishop and pastor or parish life director have designated to lead them in prayer. In such a case, the celebration takes one of the forms found in the ritual Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest. It is the role of the pastor or parish life director to determine what form of celebration is appropriate for the community when the priest is absent. For example, parishes that do not reserve large amounts of the consecrated Eucharist will be unable to distribute Communion in the event of an unplanned absence of a priest.
*
and
*There should normally be only one assembly of this kind in each place on any given Sunday. A parish or mission which celebrates Mass on a given Sunday may not normally also hold a Sunday celebration in the absence of a priest on that same day. However, this may not be possible given the size of our parishes and the size of our churches. When a community wishes to deviate from this directive, they can apply to the Diocesan Office of Worship, through their pastor or parish life director, for permission to hold more than one Sunday celebration in the absence of a priest per weekend, or a celebration of the Eucharist (Mass) and a Sunday celebration in the absence of a priest on the same weekend. Further, given an emergency where it would not be possible to communicate to the faithful that the regular scheduled weekend Masses were cancelled, it would be allowable for each Mass, for that weekend only, to be replaced by a Sunday celebration in the absence of a priest. *
This is an excellent example of pastoral solicitude by the bishop in making this provision.
 
Surely if it happened on a Sunday and you did not know the priest was away until you got there and there was no other Mass around; you shouldn’t be sinning should you?
 


These Communion Services are completely legitimate in circumstances when a priest is unavailable; it is a provision made by the bishop of the diocese for the pastoral care of those who would be adversely affected by the inability to provide Mass.

In actual fact they were not intended to be used for weekday Masses, and were only intended for use where there was no priest available to say Sunday Mass and it would not be practically possible for parishioners to travel to Mass in another parish.

If it is possible for a person to get in a car and drive an hour on Sunday to get to a Catholic church …
Both posts are correct because each post is addressing a different aspect of the Church’s liturgical life.

Distribution of Holy Communion outside of Mass is a perfectly legitimate form (and has been for centuries). The approved liturgical rites clearly and directly provide for these.

Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest (SCAP) are a variation on the pre-existing Communion Outside of Mass rites. SCAP is, and always has been, intended only for use when it’s impossible to have a priest present for a Mass.

My point is that they are 2 different (though naturally similar) rites of the Church. Each of you is addressing a different rite.

You’re both correct. The reality is that the Church is actually giving all of us conflicting information. It’s sometimes difficult to reconcile the two realities.

Side note to Don Rogerro: in the U.S. a driving time of 1-hour is usually not considered very burdensome. For many people in big cities, that’s actually considered a very short morning commute to work (very short indeed), while for many in rural areas, that’s the equivalent of a trip to the grocery store.
 
Surely if it happened on a Sunday and you did not know the priest was away until you got there and there was no other Mass around; you shouldn’t be sinning should you?
We do not sin when we try to fulfill an obligation, but something beyond our control makes that impossible. If you arrive at a church expecting to participate in the scheduled Mass, only to learn that the Mass has been cancelled, you are not sinning.
 
This is from the USCCB

“Whenever possible, the Mass schedule of nearby parishes should be available to parishioners. If a nearby parish is celebrating Mass on a given weekday, serious consideration should be given to encouraging people to participate in that Mass rather than the parish scheduling a Liturgy of the Word with Distribution of Holy Communion.”

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/frequently-asked-questions/weekday-celebrations-in-the-absence-of-a-priest.cfm
The diocesan bishop is competent to determine what constitutes “nearby” when such norms are being utilised in his diocese.

In my experience, moreover, serious consideration on the part of both the bishop and the parish priest is always given when making a decision of this nature, and is thus in compliance with this directive – and it is offensive to say we do not.
 
The diocesan bishop is competent to determine what constitutes “nearby” when such norms are being utilised in his diocese.
Nearby means nearby. If a bishop decides that a parish a few miles away is not ‘nearby’ does that make that parish ‘far away’? Despite the fact that the parishioners probably drive their routinely to go shopping, go to work, or go out for a drink?

If a bishop deems that a parish 5 miles away is not a ‘nearby’ parish does that parish suddenly become ‘faraway’? Do diocesan bishops have authority over physical geography and distance now? Do bishops now have the authority to determine whether physical locations are far away or nearby from each other, regardless of their actual geographical distance?

Has common sense been replaced by an alternative universe where bishops determine the geographical proximity of physical objects?
 
Nearby means nearby. If a bishop decides that a parish a few miles away is not ‘nearby’ does that make that parish ‘far away’? Despite the fact that the parishioners probably drive their routinely to go shopping, go to work, or go out for a drink?

If a bishop deems that a parish 5 miles away is not a ‘nearby’ parish does that parish suddenly become ‘faraway’? Do diocesan bishops have authority over physical geography and distance now? Do bishops now have the authority to determine whether physical locations are far away or nearby from each other, regardless of their actual geographical distance?

Has common sense been replaced by an alternative universe where bishops determine the geographical proximity of physical objects?
“Nearby,” as it is used in this document, is a determination made based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of many factors. It is a relative term. Bishops, as the chief liturgist of their diocese, assuredly have the authority to determine what is a just and equitable application of these norms. It is their prerogative – and not that of someone else.
 
“Nearby,” as it is used in this document, is a determination made based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of many factors. It is a relative term. Bishops, as the chief liturgist of their diocese, assuredly have the authority to determine what is a just and equitable application of these norms. It is their prerogative – and not that of someone else.
And that of course would all be regardless of the actual physical distance between one place an another? Or is geographical proximity not the key factor in determining whether one physical object (i.e. a church) is nearby or far away from another physical object (i.e. another church)?

Or if one parish actually borders another parish, if a bishop decides that that parish is not ‘nearby’ does that mean that the other parish is not ‘nearby’ despite the fact that it actually touches the other parish?

So if the bishop determines that they are not nearby, then they are not nearby (even though they are)?

Is there a clerical parallel universe operating alongside the real world here?

Has common sense been replaced by clerical bureaucratic relativism?
 
Side note to Don Rogerro: in the U.S. a driving time of 1-hour is usually not considered very burdensome. For many people in big cities, that’s actually considered a very short morning commute to work (very short indeed), while for many in rural areas, that’s the equivalent of a trip to the grocery store.
The bishops I have known who implement this directive typically have more in mind precisely those who are unable to do things others may find unexceptional: the elderly, those of frail health, those who lack means and those greatly burdened by their life circumstance to name but a few categories…in short, mindfulness of all those impeded from undertaking what one person or group might find relatively easy but which for them is morally impossible. That is, and should be, a great factor in weighing these decisions. And thus bishops give preference to these latter considerations, as pastoral solicitude would suggest and even demand. As Pope Francis so well says, it is finding and caring for those who exist in the margins and on the periphery.

Father, with due respect, since your priesthood is tied to the United States and mine is not, the fundamental point is the following statement:
This may be the case for a remote African village that has no priest on Sunday, but hardly applies in the case of most European or American parishes.
I will leave it to you to capably defend your conference of bishops and the pastoral solicitude of the bishops of your country who are enacting Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest.

Since this provision is used in both Europe and the United States, the statement however is a critique to the bishops of Europe as well as the bishops of the United States and that needs be responded to – and I rise to defend the bishops of Europe from what is a most illegitimate criticism.

For what concerns the United States, the national conference of bishops has made a determination that Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest indeed may be utilised. That is a standing determination. Bishops in the United States have used and are using this prerogative – as are our bishops in Europe – and they do so with the knowledge and consent of the Holy See.

At least for us in Europe, the bishop is the Father of his diocese as well as the head of the presbyterate and it would be an ugly temerity for one in a diocese to presume to sit in judgment of the bishop in the exercise of his pastoral care of his flock – above all when he is using a prerogative clearly conceded and entrusted to him by the Holy See and the exercise of which is overseen by the Holy See.

An individual, such as the poster, is welcome to voice their opinions – but it is of value to the bishop’s evaluation only if he or she is directly affected, as the norms state. It would, however, be singularly inappropriate for one to make a sweeping declaration that second guesses not only the decision of the diocesan bishop but, even worse, attempts to delegitimise the collective decisions of entire regions of bishops who are using Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest. Such temerity at the same time displays an extraordinary lack of deference to the Holy See.

The Holy See’s directive is crystal clear:

It belongs to the diocesan bishop, after hearing the council of presbyters, to decide whether Sunday assemblies without the celebration of the eucharist should be held on a regular basis in his diocese. It belongs also to the bishop, after considering the place and persons involved, to set out both general and particular norms for such celebrations

And thus that anyone would categorically imply that entire groups of bishops, be it in Europe or North America, have erred in utilising Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, while going so far as to say that these celebrations are proper only “to remote African villages,” is decidedly incorrect.
 
And that of course would all be regardless of the actual physical distance between one place an another? Or is geographical proximity not the key factor in determining whether one physical object (i.e. a church) is nearby or far away from another physical object (i.e. another church)?

Or if one parish actually borders another parish, if a bishop decides that that parish is not ‘nearby’ does that mean that the other parish is not ‘nearby’ despite the fact that it actually touches the other parish?

So if the bishop determines that they are not nearby, then they are not nearby (even though they are)?

Is there a clerical parallel universe operating alongside the real world here?

Has common sense been replaced by clerical bureaucratic relativism?
I wish to alert you that I find your tone to be increasingly demeaning and condescending to we clergy.

A parish in a diocese must ALWAYS share borders with the surrounding parishes. Thus, there are never territories that exist in a diocese for which pastoral provision and the cura animarum is not made.

Geographical location would be one factor in determining what is “nearby” relative to the exercise of a norm. There are many other factors that are given their respective and proper weight in what is ultimately a pastoral evaluation.

You are using “nearby” as an absolute geographical term. The application of the norms in question are addressing pastorally whether there is adequate provision in place by relying on the Mass schedule of another parish or parishes (or other chapel where Mass maybe celebrated) when another place’s Mass is cancelled. Does what remains provide adequate pastoral care for those in the area desiring to receive the Eucharist or should a supplementary provision be made? Thus: Is the remaining place(s) to be considered effectively “nearby” for those negatively impacted such that what is available sufficiently supplies for the legitimate needs and expectations of the people. Such a decision, accounting of the nearby parish(es), should be taken based on a variety of factors beyond simply how many miles separate the places geographically.

I currently reside in a place where there are two parishes within a 10 minute walk. Of course, they are deemed “nearby” to each other. When a Mass is cancelled in one on a weekday (as now happens frequently), people need to adjust their routines to attend one of the other Masses. There is no substituting a Communion Service in this circumstance.

On the other hand, I was pastor of a parish where the neighboring parish was 15 miles away. Its one daily Mass was in the morning and our one daily Mass was in the evening. People who wanted a morning Mass could go there from my parish and people who wanted an evening Mass from that parish were welcomed at mine. Both of us contended with binating for frequent funerals so neither could add a second daily Mass and the Masses were coordinated to provide the maximum options possible.

The people were consulted and a sufficient number said they went to either Mass because the other could not fit their schedule at all.

For his evaluation, the bishop looked at the geographic distance. He also looked at the respective schedules of the Masses. He wanted to understand the routines of those who were attending daily Mass and how fitting the Mass into their schedules affected other aspects of their lives. He looked at the placement of the parishes relative to the rest of the diocese. And, yes, he said the distance was one factor among many that was relevant. The same distance, given other circumstances, could cause him to make an entirely different prudential judgement of about being “nearby.”

When either pastor could not celebrate the daily Mass for whatever reason, the bishop thus determined IN THIS INSTANCE that, for the purposes of these concrete circumstances, we were not in fact “nearby” as envisioned in the norms at hand and that Communion Services were indeed warranted. In view of the disruption to peoples’ lives and schedules, as well as our respective circumstances as priests, such a finding was deemed justified by the one who had the power to make it. Both pastors agreed with the bishop’s finding as did the Vicar Forane. In every sense, the matter was given the serious consideration the norms call for.

That ended the discussion, as there was an authoritative finding by the Father of the diocese.

Frankly, given the maxim in canon law that laws that are permissive are always given the broadest possible interpretation and that laws that are punitive are to be given the narrowest possible interpretation, one should not have to explain why something has been pastorally conceded but only why something was not pastorally conceded.

I also fail to see why one would wish to be miserly in the use of pastoral solutions that are at hand, approved for use, readily available and their use encouraged by the diocesan bishop. It is pastorally insensitive not to be generous in their use.
 
I wish to alert you that I find your tone to be increasingly demeaning and condescending to we clergy.
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Well that is not my intention. Surely clergy can be questioned, or are we laity simply meant to agree unquestionably with every decision or interpretation made of disciplinary rules by our clergy?

By definition ‘nearby’ refers to geographic proximity. Or is there an alternative definition in the English language.
 
Well that is not my intention. Surely clergy can be questioned, or are we laity simply meant to agree unquestionably with every decision or interpretation made of disciplinary rules by our clergy?
Not to undermine the human element, but most of what you two seem to be discussing can very well be determined by computer models, more specifically the transportation model that is studied in business schools. The object is to find an optimal level of satisfaction, not necessarily one which is pleasing to all.
 
Not to undermine the human element, but most of what you two seem to be discussing can very well be determined by computer models, more specifically the transportation model that is studied in business schools. The object is to find an optimal level of satisfaction, not necessarily one which is pleasing to all.
In the particular instance I have referenced, mine was a parish with many elderly – hence the large number of funerals obviating even the possibility of a second daily Mass – and the vast majority of daily Mass attendees were well beyond retirement. This factor made the early morning Mass in the other parish less viable for those who chose the evening Mass – plus there was a need to drive and there were a significant number who felt less confident driving between the towns – and all that entered into the bishop’s discernment of what should actually be considered “nearby,” most especially in the estimation of those who were actually affected.

Plus the parish was fortunate to have someone at hand who had the bishop’s confidence at being able to capably lead a Communion service when the need arose. This ready availability was a factor in his decision.

The bishop knowing his diocese and the flock in the various parishes, his willingness to seek to understand their needs, his confidence in providing solutions available to him, and his ready willingness to use his prerogatives to make provisions that were a compassionate solution were all remarkable attributes… I am indebted to him for a pastoral vision that shaped my own vision of being a pastor.

Beyond this, I am not going to answer any further questions on this matter. The decision on this pastoral provision was taken by His Excellency, the diocesan bishop. There really isn’t anything further that need be said, either by a priest or lay person, in the face of the bishop’s decision.
 


Father, with due respect, since your priesthood is tied to the United States and mine is not, the fundamental point is the following statement:

My point is that what constitutes a burden, in terms of commuting to the Sunday Mass, is relative.

What constitutes a long drive for some might be a short drive for others, and vice versa.
 


By definition ‘nearby’ refers to geographic proximity. Or is there an alternative definition in the English language.
It’s relative.

I’ve heard that people in places like Africa walk for hours to get to Sunday Mass. People in the Middle East might drive several hours. People in Chicago might have only to commute a few minutes.

The units of measure don’t change. A mile is a mile anywhere. But what constitutes a burden for traveling can (and does) vary by location and other circumstances.

10 miles is not very far for one who is driving a family car, but for a family walking to Mass it’s a far distance.

An hour in the car is not considered a burden for most people in the U.S. An hour in the car is (as I understand it) considered a far distance in the U.K.
 
It’s relative.

I’ve heard that people in places like Africa walk for hours to get to Sunday Mass. People in the Middle East might drive several hours. People in Chicago might have only to commute a few minutes.

The units of measure don’t change. A mile is a mile anywhere. But what constitutes a burden for traveling can (and does) vary by location and other circumstances.

10 miles is not very far for one who is driving a family car, but for a family walking to Mass it’s a far distance.

An hour in the car is not considered a burden for most people in the U.S. An hour in the car is (as I understand it) considered a far distance in the U.K.
Thank you very kindly, Father David.
 
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