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FireFromHeaven
Guest
What makes humans and God persons? What makes animals non persons? What makes the three persons of the trinity seperate persons? How can we show this to non Christians.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
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FireFromHeaven
Guest
I mean how do we show that something is a person to people like Hindus who believe animals have souls?
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Robert_Sock
Guest
You would probably need to have access to your soul in the Hereafter.
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FireFromHeaven
Guest
I am trying to explain the trinity to a Muslim. What makes the three persons of the trinity persons?
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dshix
Guest
FireFromHeaven,
The Trinity is a mystery of the Church, which is a dogmatic truth declared by the Church.
There is NO way to prove this to a person unless they already accept the infallible teaching authority of the Catholic Church. You must not start here, because there is no way for you to convince this Muslim.
You need to start back at Catholicism, and prove that it is true, and prove the infallible teaching authority of the Church AFTER you’ve proved that Jesus is God and that he founded the Catholic Church. THEN, we can go on to talk about dogmatic teachings that can be proved no other way.
I’d suggest finding someone you know who is experienced in apologetics to talk to your Muslim friend. This is a very long and very difficult conversion process ahead of you.
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FireFromHeaven
Guest
How do you do that?
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Verbum
Guest
Hi FFH,
“Person” in its fundamental (philosophical) meaning, is the conscious subject of an action. This excludes animals, who are not conscious. (Conscious here is akin to aware.)
The Trinity is three persons in one nature. This means that there is only one God, but three separate and distinct subjects of conscious actions. In the Bible we can find many instances where actions are attributed specifically to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. In our present state we cannot comprehend this mystery, but God will enlighten us when we see Him “face"to face”.
Jesus, on the other hand, is two natures in one person. In other words, he does not have a “human mode” and a “divine mode”. The divine nature has “assumed” our humanity. All of Christ’s actions are divine. How the divine and the human mesh is something that we can try to understand, but will comprehend only in heaven.
What do you think?
Verbum
“Person” in its fundamental (philosophical) meaning, is the conscious subject of an action. This excludes animals, who are not conscious. (Conscious here is akin to aware.)
The Trinity is three persons in one nature. This means that there is only one God, but three separate and distinct subjects of conscious actions. In the Bible we can find many instances where actions are attributed specifically to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. In our present state we cannot comprehend this mystery, but God will enlighten us when we see Him “face"to face”.
Jesus, on the other hand, is two natures in one person. In other words, he does not have a “human mode” and a “divine mode”. The divine nature has “assumed” our humanity. All of Christ’s actions are divine. How the divine and the human mesh is something that we can try to understand, but will comprehend only in heaven.
What do you think?
Verbum
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Sounds good, but this classic definition needs clarification in light of what we know (or think) about animal minds. What distinguishes the kind of awareness possessed by cats and dogs and other such brute beasts from personal consciousness?
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
And what makes a corporation a person?
And how about juridic persons?:juggle:
And how about juridic persons?:juggle:
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Katholish
Guest
“Person” has a very precise philosophical meaning, and no, it is not “the conscious subject of an action”. The definition of person is “an individual substance of a rational nature”. It was first defined by Boethius and that definition has been generally accept by the Church and Catholic philosophers ever since, particular by St. Thomas.
When used in referrence to the Trinity, the caveat must be understood that “individual” is not a modifier of the term substance, be means more “an individual with a substantial and rational nature”.
When used in referrence to the Trinity, the caveat must be understood that “individual” is not a modifier of the term substance, be means more “an individual with a substantial and rational nature”.
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FireFromHeaven
Guest
Doesn’t that mean that abortion can be justified? Babies arent rational.
Before anyone jumps on me I am saying what I would expect a pro choices to say after reading this.
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Katholish
Guest
Babies have a rational nature.Doesn’t that mean that abortion can be justified? Babies arent rational.
Before anyone jumps on me I am saying what I would expect a pro choices to say after reading this.
They are individual, they are substantial, and they have rational natures–all parts of the definition. They are persons just as much as you or I.
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FireFromHeaven
Guest
Ok then, how do we define rational nature?
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Katholish
Guest
A thing’s “nature” is “what it is to be that kind of thing”. It is the essence of a thing.
In this case, a baby and an adult are the same kind of thing… a human being. Part of what it is to be a human being is to be rational. Thus we say that any human being has a rational nature. If in cases where an individual is not able to use reason, or has not yet fully developed the physical organs necessary to use reason (such as an unborn baby), they are no less human.
We can look at another example and that might help clear up the matter. Cats! If we were to talk about what makes a cat be a cat, we might say that cats have 4 legs. All house cats by nature have 4 legs. Even if one is injured and loses a leg, it does not cease being a cat.
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